Examination of Witnesses (Questions 15760
- 15779)
15760. Mr George: I am prepared to leave
it there—reminding you of the matters I said in opening.
I am wholly satisfied that the Committee is aware of the urgency
which is involved and the importance in these matters. Thank you,
sir.
15761. Mr Liddell-Grainger: I would just
make one comment, Mr George. Thank you for pulling me up on the
relationship between the House of Commons and the House of Lords.
I can absolutely assure you that we will do the job as given the
timetable we have. I can also assure that the conversations we
have between this House and the House of Lords are always full
and very frank. The noble Lords miss very little. You are very
well aware that many of your esteemed colleagues sit there. I
can assure you if you feel that anything may be "got past"
by Crossrail, it will not. We do not have the time but our noble
friends next door certainly will. I can assure you we will not
be allowing them to miss a point.
15762. Mr George: I intended no criticism
of their Lordships' House. I am merely anxious that your Committee
should perform its full task
15763. Mr Liddell-Grainger: Mr George,
thank you very much. Could I now call Mr Andrew Newcombe.
The Petition of the ExCel Centre.
Mr Andrew Newcombe QC appeared on behalf of the Petitioner.
Bircham Dyson Bell appeared as Agent.
15764. Mr Liddell-Grainger: By way of
opening, Ms Lieven, would you like to say anything?
15765. Ms Lieven: Sir, I would. This
has come on a mite faster than we had expected so there is a bit
of desperate looking for the plan to show to the Committee. This
is the Petition on behalf of what is known colloquially as the
ExCel Centre.[60]
15766. The Excel Centre is a very large exhibition
centre in Docklands which members of the Committee may be familiar
with, which is adjacent to the existing Custom House DLR station.
In this location the Committee may remember (although in truth
we have had very few petitions on this section before the Committee,
so I do not know to what degree this will come as new material)
that we are taking over this portion of the North London Line,
a line the Committee has become very familiar with but in a slightly
different bit of the North London Line; and Crossrail is emerging
from a portal somewhat to the left of Custom House, taking over
the North London Line and then running east past Royal Victoria
Dock and off towards Abbey Wood. At the vicinity of ExCel, which
is here, we need to do works in order to take over the North London
Line and push the DLR lines very slightly to the south. The issue
that arises in relation to the ExCel Centre, which is before this
Committee (there have been other issues but those have all been
agreed), is the impact on ExCel of those works pushing the DLR
line to the south. Just so the Committee understand, one can see
that it is a very constrained area, because the main road runs
to the north of the tracks there. We obviously have the centre
to the south. There is not very much room for manoeuvre at this
location.
15767. If I can put up our exhibits 17304A-002
we will get to the heart of the matter.[61]
Sir, this is the centre. This is the existing position. There
are three lorry areas, if I can put them like that. That is the
lorry queuing area. The next one to the left is also a lorry queuing
area. It is the blue one which is the existing lorry park which
is in issue today. That is the existing situation.
15768. If we can go on to 003, focussing in
on the western area, the lorry holding area.[62]
What this plan shows in the mustardy-yellow section is the area
that Crossrail requires temporarily for worksite and working area
related to the movement of the works here. The dark purple area
is the permanent land-take that Crossrail requires. The reason
we need permanent land there is because of the shifting of the
DLR tracks to the south. There are three issues relating to this
area which ExCel bring before the Committee.
15769. The first is the temporary impact; the
second is the permanent impact; and the third is compensation.
So far as temporary impact is concerned, we will obviously hear
from Mr Newcombe and his witnesses, but I believe we are very
close to agreement on that (or perhaps not), but I will tell you
what Crossrail has offered.
15770. So far as the temporary situation is
concerned, Crossrail have offered to ExCel, for the duration of
the authorised works, that the Promoter agrees to use reasonable
endeavours to procure provision for the temporary relocation of
parking facilities to accommodate up to, and then the number of
vehicles will be agreed with ExCel as to the number impacted.[63]
Then the Promoter agrees, in consultation with LIEC, which is
ExCel, to use all reasonable endeavours to limit the duration
of its temporary occupancy and use of so much of the lorry park
as is not to be permanently acquired, and to arrange for so much
of the lorry park, as is not to be permanently acquired, to be
reinstated to ExCel's reasonable satisfaction following completion
of the works.
15771. To put it colloquially, on temporary
loss there are a number of sites in the vicinity of ExCel which
we will work with, the key player, the London Development Agency
to find and assist ExCel to use for the temporary period. We will
obviously start by looking to see if there are sites on their
own land.
15772. The position is more difficult in relation
to the permanent loss—we say it is perfectly straightforward
but it is more difficult inasmuch as it is more difficult to find
alternative sites.[64]
The permanent loss the Committee will remember is this small,
thin purple slither. The area is obviously much smaller than for
the temporary loss. I have to say, we are not convinced at the
moment (although we will obviously listen carefully to what Excel
say in evidence) that there is going to be much, if any, material
impact on parking here.
15773. In any event, the issue seems to be something
like parking for 16 HGVs, large HGVs. I think that is the maximum
that ExCel themselves are in issue with. We say, we believe that
there are a number of ways that ExCel could overcome that loss,
if there really is a loss here, by using their existing spaces
perhaps in slightly different ways.
15774. Sir, if we can pan out on that plan for
a moment so we see the whole thing. It is worth noting at this
stage two points: one is, ExCel have an outline planning permission
for what is known as "ExCel 2" over to the east; but
even taking that into account, we still believe that, through
the slight re-jigging of surface level car parking, there really
is a concern about spaces for 16 artics but on the land we are
taking there is space to put them in, on existing surface level
parking even after ExCel 2.
15775. The other point to make strongly in opening
is that, if one goes back to Crossrail and Custom House station,
the advent of Crossrail at this location will result in what we
have come to know this morning as a "step change" in
public transport provision for the ExCel Centre. At the moment
it is served by DLR, doubtless a marvellous service, but nothing
on the scale of Crossrail nor on the geographic scope of Crossrail.
Once Crossrail arrives here there will be the ability of people
to travel to ExCel by public transport from all over the South
East with very great ease; and the station itself is being rebuilt
for Crossrail. The Petition should be seen in the context of the
truly enormous benefit to the ExCel Centre that Crossrail will
bring, if one looks at the matter in the totality.
15776. Sir, that is a brief outline. I am sure
we will see much more detail of the car parking spaces. I hope
that is all the Committee needs at this stage.
15777. Mr Liddell-Grainger: Thank you,
Ms Lieven; at this stage, yes.
15778. Mr Newcombe: Sir, good afternoon.
It is a privilege in three ways to appear before the Committee.
Firstly, to be here; secondly, to follow my pupil master, Mr Charles
George; and, thirdly, I am most honoured for the first time ever
in my career he has allowed me to use his lectern. I thought I
ought to record that on the parliamentary transcript.
15779. Mr Liddell-Grainger: If you break
it, Mr Newcombe, you will never hear the end of it! You need to
be careful!
60 Crossrail Environmental Statement, Volume 4b, Custom
House Station, Key Environmental Features-Map SE2(i), billdocuments.crossrail.co.uk
(LINEWD-ES17-111). Back
61
Crossrail Ref: P111, Existing Lorry Parking Areas (NEWMLB-7304A-002). Back
62
Crossrail Ref: P111, Proposed Lorry Parking Areas (NEWMLB-7304A-003). Back
63
Crossrail Ref: P111, Temporary acquisition of the Lorry Park
as a worksite (SCN-20060713-001 to -003). Back
64
Crossrail Ref: P111, Proposed Lorry Parking Areas (NEWMLB-7304A-003). Back
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