Examination of Witnesses (Questions 16160
- 16179)
16160. Thank you. Can you explain what consultation
has been undertaken on the demolition of listed buildings and
buildings in conservation areas, please?
(Mr Berryman) Yes, where we have been talking
about the demolition of listed buildings and buildings in conservation
areas, we have discussed this with a number of planning authorities
and English Heritage. We have explained the reasons for doing
demolition and English Heritage have expressed themselves content
that these matters will be raised in the Committee. We have had
a number of issues particularly with the London Borough of Islington,
which you know about, Oxford Street, 38 Charterhouse Square and
we have now agreed to retain this building but other local authorities
have been content with the demolition. I think it is worth saying
here, as was raised a few moments ago, that the designs of the
over-site development have not been done. This has been our policy
from the beginning. The application for planning consent for those
over-site developments will be made through the local authority
in the normal way. There are a number of reasons for this. I think
it is worth pointing out that if this Committee was to hear what
would amount to planning applications on every one of the buildings
we have constructed over the sites, we would be here for quite
a long time. It is a more efficient and more appropriate way for
the local authorities to deal with those issues. In several of
the cases that have been mentioned, particularly the Tottenham
Court Road and Dean Street site, Westminster City Council has
prepared planning routes which quite obviously require impacts
on townscapes and something that has to be addressed in the designs
of the new buildings that replace those we demolish.
16161. While we are dealing with over-station
development, I think it might be helpful, Mr Berryman, if you
could take the Committee through one aspect of Information Paper
D18.
(Mr Berryman) If I can remember!
16162. Page three. It will come up on the screen
and I am sure it will come back to you just as it has done to
me when the page was passed to me by Mr Mould.[58]
We can see at the bottom of this page, paragraph 3.4, a draft
undertaking on OSD has been prepared by the Secretary of State
and published on the DfT website. It proposes a number of factors
and a number of steps. Firstly, consultation with local planning
authorities prior to a submission of planning application for
OSD on a number of matters, those are set out on the next page?
(Mr Berryman) Yes.
16163. Secondly, we see OSDs in or adjacent
to conservation areas will be designed in accordance with local,
regional and national and spatial local planning policies and
in consultation with English Heritage.
16164. Thirdly, in assessing the contribution
OSDs will make to the character or enhancement of conservation
areas, the quality of buildings that existed prior to demolition
will be given material consideration. We can see at the bottom
of this page four a heading "Townscape". Paragraph 5.1
explains the demolition buildings, the demolition of buildings
and the development of new stations, shafts as a replacement to
development will result in changes to the townscape along the
Crossrail route impacts on designated conservation areas are set
out in section 3, though much of the route is undesignated, the
works do affect areas of high quality townscape particularly in
central London. In 5.2 we see what is proposed to address that.
In exercising their functions to preserve the townscape a local
authority would be able to approve the detail of the design and
external appearance of the Crossrail buildings as set out in Schedule
7 to the Bill". We have already seen the arrangements for
OSD.
(Mr Berryman)Yes, I do recall it and in fact,
if my recollection is correct, Mr Elvin referred to this at some
length in his opening address when the proceedings started.
16165. Your memory is better than mine, Mr Berryman.
Now let us turn away then from the general matters and on to the
specifics. Can we start with the examination of the Dean Street
and the western ticket hall at Tottenham Court Road
(Mr Berryman) Yes, could we have exhibit 012,
please.[59]
This site is bounded by Oxford Street, Great Chapel Street, Fareham
Street and Dean Street. The intention is to acquire it and demolish
it for the western ticket hall for Crossrail's Tottenham Court
Road Station. Members who were on the visit for the British Film
Board classification may remember this lot, we went and stood
on Oxford Street outside the block. Can we zoom in on that. There
will be a ticket hall on this site. Can I have a pointer, Mr Mould,
as you are normally accused of stealing it! Oxford Street is directly
above the Central Line just here and escalators come down from
that Oxford Street entrance into a ticket hall which is at basement
level and, from that basement, escalators go down to the Crossrail
passages down here and down to the Central Line passages down
here. Those are the works which will be built there. At the back
of that site there is a shaft which provides ventilation, lifts,
emergency escape stairs from the west end of the platforms and
so on. In addition, there is a shallow escalator shaft which passes
underneath part of that site and that is why we need to demolish
the stuff at the back of the site, the Fareham Street site. It
would be impossible to keep that with the current state of design.
The Petitioner has mentioned this should be moved to a building
across the road which is currently occupied by, I think, a Tesco's
store which is a rather unprepossessing building. I do not think
anyone would argue with that. The problem with that is that building
alone is of insufficient size to provide the facilities which
we need. Members of the Committee, who are familiar with the Jubilee
Line, will know the scale of the works and the modern Underground
railway facility, how large things have to be and that is to fit
in with a modern space, so our structures are large and, in this
case, the site occupied by Tesco's alone will be insufficiently
large to provide and we would need to demolish the next-door buildings
and possibly buildings fronting onto Soho Square as well. Even
if it is possible, and I very much doubt if it is possible, because
it is too far to the east.
16166. On that last point, if we can go to 28904,
page 8, we can see the western ticket hall marked on that particular
drawing.[60]
If we imagine that ticket hall being moved to the east of the
opposite side of Dean Street, can you just explain what the difficulties
would be with the ticket hall in that location?
(Mr Berryman) Yes. We would still
need a facility of about the same size. The first point to make
is that because the building will be moved further to the east,
it will be too far from the escape shafts and ventilation shafts
to effectively serve them. We cannot move the whole station east,
because it is obstructed by the northern line which runs here
and we pass directly over that. So we are pretty much fixed as
to where the station platforms can go. If we went into the site
here, even if it was possible, and I am pretty confident it is
not, but even if it was we would have to be working into Soho
Square, which is also conservation area, we would need to be taking
the building on the corner here which is also a building of some
merit, but we would be immediately adjacent to the French protestant
church which, I think, is in this site here and would also present
some difficulties, so it is really not a very easy thing to do.
16167. Thank you very much. So far as 94 Dean
Street is concerned, why cannot that be retained?
(Mr Berryman) 94 Dean Street is around here,
just there and there is a 90 millimetre diameter shaft immediately
adjacent to it, that is the shaft I just referred to which carries
the ventilation structures and all that sort of thing immediately
next to it and the escalator shaft was just underneath it, so
it makes it impossible to retain it. Moreover, I understand that
the elements which led to the list of this building have been
substantially removed by the previous owner.
16168. Thank you. Whilst we have got this plan
on the screen, shall we just deal with this point about the post
office in Rathbone Place and the sorting office?
(Mr Berryman) Yes, the post office is this
building, so right at the north of Oxford Street. I mean there
is an old saying about railways that you always have the station
near the lines, and that is just too far from the railway lines
to provide an effective connection to the Crossrail platforms,
that is not a realistic suggestion.
16169. It may be suggested that that means you
have to move the lines, Mr Berryman; what would you say about
that suggestion?
(Mr Berryman) The route for Crossrail, as I
think we have given evidence on before, is selected very carefully
to avoid deep foundations and other underground obstructions such
as other underground lines, deep sewers and the like, to move
the whole thing would be a major undertaking and would really
be back to square one.
16170. If the whole thing were moved north of
Oxford Street and the only site you had was the post office site
itself to build the entire Crossrail station with two ticket halls
as is presently set out, what is the practicability of that sort
of suggestion?
(Mr Berryman) I mean you could not do that.
First of all, the site, as you say, would only be one end of the
station. You would need to take another site somewhere else and
this building is the YMCA, which was one of my very early projects
so I know quite a bit about that building, you would have to knock
that down, which would be a certain signature to my career, that
is the only advantage.
16171. Let us move on to address the eastern
ticket hall and in particular dealing with the corner building,
1-7 Oxford Street and 9-15 Oxford Street please, can you explain
what construction is necessary and why those buildings have to
be demolished?
(Mr Berryman) Yes. Can we have 009 up, please?[61]
I think Mr Taylor has already shown you this slide. This shows
the staircase which exists at the moment giving access to the
Tottenham Court Road station. Obviously we need to keep Tottenham
Court Road station as is running whilst Crossrail is built, because
it is one of the busiest stations on the underground network and
we certainly would not want to close it. We are proposing to build
a new escalator from street level to take people down into the
ticket hall that would be on that corner and the point about that
is that the entrance structure here is constrained on all four
sides, we will be putting small diameter piles along the back
edge of the structure and we would need to take a huge hole in
the fa[lcced]ade, there would be hardly any of it left if we were
to do this and that would be very, very difficult. In addition,
the local authority are very anxious about the layout of the footpaths
in this area and retaining those facades would be difficult to
give a wider path as we are proposing and I do not think that
that would be acceptable to the local authority.
16172. Thank you very much indeed. There was
also a suggestion that we should simply use the existing station
entrances?
(Mr Berryman) I do not know if the Petitioner
has ever been to Tottenham Court Road court on a busy evening,
it is absolutely dreadful, the entrances are grossly overcrowded
to the point of being dangerous. The station is frequently closed,
often because of the underground capacity issue very often because
of people on the congestion on the staircases and entrances, it
would be inconceivable to keep the existing entrance.[62]
16173. And what will Crossrail do to the number
of passengers arriving and departing?
(Mr Berryman) Very significantly increase it,
otherwise we would not be building it.
16174. Let us turn to deal briefly with 148
Charing Cross Road.
(Mr Berryman) Have you got picture 11? In order
to build the station we need to provide a temporary closure of
part of Charing Cross Road and a diversion around the back of
Centre Point. In order to do that we will need to demolish 148
Charing Cross Road which is the building on the corner. It is
worth pointing out that parliament has already actually once approved
demolition of this building in connection with a safety measures
scheme some time ago. That was not taken through by London Underground,
I understand, due to lack of funding, but parliament consent has
already been given to that demolition.
16175. Thank you. Let us have a look now at
the Astoria Theatre, why do we need to take the Astoria Theatre
site?
(Mr Berryman) The primary reason for our demolition
of this site is as a work site to support the station tunnelling
activities which take place from the next door site. We have,
and you showed in your introduction slide showing the site layout,
it is quite a difficult site, it is very congested, as you can
see the location in central London is not helpful and it is party
to serve the Goslett Yard site, which is immediately to the south,
and the Goslett Yard site is virtually completely occupied by
a very deep large shaft which contains the escalators and all
the other paraphernalia that go with it and in order to build
that we need some working space. We do not think that it would
be possible to construct from the Goslett Yard site alone and
that is why we required the Astoria site as well. Just for reference,
the Goslett Yard and the Astoria work sites taken together have
a combined of 3,400 square metres which is much smaller than any
of the other work sites we have got, such as Hanbury Square and
Finsbury Circus which are slightly bigger than that and they are
two of the more difficult sites as well. It is worth pointing
out that some of the works notably up here may be done slightly
earlier than Crossrail hopes because Amey Rail will be doing those
works themselves.
16176. Thank you. It may be suggested that perhaps
the façade of the Astoria Theatre should be retained; what
would you say about that suggestion?
(Mr Berryman) Well it would be very, very difficult
indeed. The traffic arrangements in the area would require so
many holes in the front of them there would hardly be anything
left and it is not straightforward to do this kind of work with
a propped-up façade in that way, it can be done of course
and it is done all the time, but like everything it adds to costs
and adds to the timetable and would ultimately add to the environmental
disruption which is caused in terms of traffic because of that
extension of time.
16177. Thank you. In terms of what would be
involved with the fa[lcced]ade retention, what physically would
have to be done?
(Mr Berryman) It would require a big hole of
two storeys high to be created in the fa[lcced]ade, that would
take about 40% of the length of the fa[lcced]ade. The remainder
of it would have to be supported with lorries running around,
a very high risk of impact causing collapse to the works, it is
just not a straightforward and easy thing to do.
16178. Thank you. Let us deal then with the
forecourt of Centre Point; what is to be constructed there?
(Mr Berryman) In the front part of Centre Point
there are two entrances to be constructed to the Crossrail station,
including lift access for MIP persons and basically the area around
that will be landscaped to provide pedestrian facilities, the
ticket hall extends underneath that part and those are works to
be done there.
16179. Is it possible to retain or reinstate
the fountains?
(Mr Berryman) It is not possible to reinstate
the pool in its current location as it would clash with the location
of the new station entrances. The station entrances and where
you can put them is very limited because of the things that are
underneath, underground. Re-location of the pool would be possible,
but it would take up space on the plaza and would obstruct a new
pedestrian route which the local authority wants to create down
from Oxford Street to Covent Garden.
58 Crossrail Information Paper D18-Listed Buildings
and Conservation Areas, billdocuments.crossrail.co.uk Back
59
Committee Ref: P115, Tottenham Court Road Station-3D Axonometric
View, Dean Street Ticket Hall (LINEWD-29804-012). Back
60
Committee Ref: P115, Tottenham Court Road Station-Crossrail Proposals
(LINEWD-28904-008). Back
61
Crossrail Ref: P115, Tottenham Court Road, Proposed plaza level
showing outline of existing Oxford Street entrance (LINEWD-28904-009). Back
62
Crossrail Ref: P115, Tottenham Court Road East, Traffic Management
Stage E Outline Map C5(xi) (LINEWD-28904-009). Back
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