Examination of Witnesses (Questions 18860
- 18879)
18860. Mr Elvin: Sir, I would just like
to say three things. In view of what I have just heard, and I
have not said this at any stage over these hearings, can I remind
Mr Schabas that he is on oath; that he is giving evidence to Parliament
and that the penalties for deceiving Parliament are severe. Secondly,—
18861. Chairman: Let me deal with that
one first.
18862. Mr Elvin: Sir, it was not a submission.
This is a serious point because of the accusations he has just
made about Mr Berryman. We will obviously consider any response
when we see what is produced, but I am slightly concerned that
we are embarking on what might become a lengthy diversionary inquiry
because if you are going to start looking at this, in order to
get to the truth of the matter you may end up having to look at
every iteration of every report that was received from 2001-05.
18863. Chairman: Mr Elvin, let me be
absolutely precise on what I am saying here. The accusations which
are levelled are serious, we take them very seriously. We do not
intend to be very long on this issue. If there is proof of such
accusations we expect it to be presented very, very quickly to
this Committee. Whatever evidence, we expect at least a response
from Mr Carpenter when he goes away in respect of the accusations
being made and the evidence he has. We expect that very, very
quickly. We will then deal with it as a Committee in private and
then we will decide what to do on that. These are most serious
matters and, as I say, we do not expect it to hold up the work
of this Committee at all and we do not expect it to reopen the
whole of this inquiry either. This is a bill which Parliament
wants and we intend to deliver this bill for Parliament, and as
quickly as possible, however we have to be aware that what has
been presented to the Committee is of a serious nature and we
want that dealt with before we proceed with this witness.
18864. Mr Elvin: Chairman, to the extent
that it is for us to do so, I entirely endorse what you say. It
is the seriousness of the accusations that were made just before
you rose that caused me to say what I said because it is my task
also to look after the interests of my expert witnesses. Mr Schabas
has made a serious accusation which was not foreshadowed in a
single email or piece of correspondence, which is why I remind
him that he is on oath to Parliament in making that response.
I take it as seriously as the Committee do.
(Mr Schabas) Can I—
18865. Mr Elvin: Mr Schabas, you are
not being asked questions.
18866. Chairman: Mr Schabas, you will
not respond at all. Can I say there is an apology from this side
because of the very slow nature of our response in relation to
getting copies to people present. Our clerks were only given the
documentation at something like five minutes to ten, which is
quite unsatisfactory and not the way this Committee expects to
operate.
18867. Mr Elvin: Mr Carpenter has our
email addresses and he has been sending us many emails over the
last week; the one thing that is conspicuously missing is the
statement that he produced this morning.
18868. Chairman: Mr Schabas you can stand
down. We will reserve our position on yours and the evidence given.
Mr Carpenter, if you wish to sum up in relation to the evidence
you presented in relation to your first witness then we will proceed.
If not, then you may sum up at a later point.
The witness withdrew
18869. Mr Carpenter: Just to clarify:
will I have the chance of a fair hearing in front of the Committee?
I am not a professional and I do not understand. I understand
that I have not given you copies of this but I have provided it
to the Committee and I am prepared, from what you said earlier,
for the fact that the Promoter will need to go away and read it.
I do not understand whether you are accepting the documents I
have submitted or not at this stage, particularly the legal opinion.
18870. Chairman: I am going to give you
an opinion, Mr Carpenter. Number one, you did present papers to
the Committee but they were in insufficient time for not only
getting them out to our Members but to others present who need
sight of that documentation and that is unfortunate.
18871. In answer to your first query about whether
or not you are going to get a fair hearing, you most certainly
are. This is the British Parliament, this is a select committee
of the House and you will get that. The reason why we are suspending
any future debate on this matter is precisely because of that.
These accusations which have been made are very, very serious
indeed and we will expect to receive evidence and a statement
on that and we will deal with it in the future. In relation to
your case, your hearing is now suspended until we receive that
at an early date. I will ask the clerk to liaise with you about
how quickly you can put this matter together and get the evidence
necessary and get it back to us as a Committee.
18872. Mr Elvin: Sir, I have a third
reservation.
18873. Mr Binley: I am sorry but I think
we all need to understand that we are talking about people's lives
and people's reputations here and this is why it is so important
and I think that needs to be stressed.
18874. Mr Elvin: Sir, my final reservation—I
said there were three and I have given two of them—is simply
this: as you know we have not taken technical points during the
course of these hearings, we have not taken locus points.
I reserve my position as to whether they are entitled to make
this point. I do not say any more about it but if this goes any
further then I think out of fairness to the Promoters I may have
to reserve our position to raise that.
18875. Chairman: I fully appreciate that
and we accept that. In fact, that is why we are reserving our
opinion.
18876. Mr Elvin: Indeed, sir. I just
thought I ought to state that for the record. Thank you.
18877. Chairman: I think what we will
do now in order that Members may make their way down to get a
cup of coffee before Prime Minister's Question Time or to attend
the National New Today photo call in New Palace Gardens,
is we will suspend until 2.30 this afternoon.
After a short adjournment
18878. Chairman: Good afternoon. Can
I point out that we will be returning to the question of a wider
look at Spitalfields at sometime in the future when Mr Elvin is
available and when the diary permits. What I am going to place
on the record is that we have received a document, which I am
listing as A215, which was delivered by hand from the Spitalfields
Community Association, and it deals with matters which pertain
to what we discussed earlier about the Liaison Committee in the
Spitalfields area. The Committee will deal with that when it sits
in private after Mr Elvin has concluded with the winding up.
18879. Mr Mould: Sir, we will make arrangements
to get a copy of that document.
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