Examination of Witnesses (Questions 19720
- 19739)
19720. Mr Newberry: There was a question
I should have put, forgive me. My learned friend can come back.
Ms Humphrey, have you had meetings with Crossrail where, in the
course of those meetings, it was suggested that you acquire the
freehold?
(Ms Humphrey) Yes, this
was a good one, 13 October, I cannot remember whether it was a
Friday or not. We had a meeting with Crossrail and everyone and
his wife turned up! We were talking about the possibility of compensation
and the fact that we do not fall into whatever category, and we
asked the Crossrail compensation person, whose name escapes me,
what he suggested we did, had he any bright ideas, as it were,
and he said, "Why do you not buy the freehold?" The
last time we checked the freehold of our building was worth £32
million, so I thought that was a bit of a facile comment to myself
and also goes to show yet again that they do not really understand
what it is like to be a little company trying to keep in business
and provide the 25 people, including myself and Ivor, who work
for Grand Central in a job, fourteen staff of whom are under 30.
Seven of my engineers are home-grown. We train people, we take
them in at either 18 or 19, maybe after university, and we train
them up and give them skills. We do not just give them technical
skills, we give them management skills, we give them people skills.
If you have the opportunity when you are out and about on Thursday
in Bond Street to come visit our studio, then you will see what
we do and how good we are at it, and I extend that offer to you.
I would be delighted to see you all.
19721. Mr Taylor: I do not have any questions.
I have got Mr Thornely-Taylor to give evidence on the Promoter's
behalf.
Mr Rupert Thornely-Taylor, recalled
Examined by Mr Taylor
19722. Mr Thornely-Taylor, if Grand Central
Sound Studios had asked in 2003 for information related to ground
level noises what would they have been provided with?
(Mr Thornely-Taylor) There
is a standard developer's pack which the Crossrail safeguarding
team put together in about 1992 and it is sent out to all the
people developing property in the safeguarded zone. It gives them
all the information they need to predict noise levels from Crossrail
which was designed to the point that it was almost ready to go
out to tender when the last Bill fell, so its characteristics
were known in great detail.
19723. So far as the undertakings that are offered
by the Promoter are concerned, can you explain to the Committee
what is being offered in relation to the operational railway?
(Mr Thornely-Taylor) The
undertaking that is being offered in relation to the operational
railway has been agreed, as I understand it, with Grand Central's
own noise advisers, and I think we have heard in evidence, if
I heard it correctly, that they are agreed that it would not affect
their business and meets all their requirements as far as noise
is concerned.
19724. Chairman: Can I ask on your previous
answer, are you saying that a pack was likely to be sent or was
it sent? Is there any record of that?
(Mr Thornely-Taylor) It
would have been sent to anyone who needed planning permission
for a development in the safeguarded zone. I assume this development
did not need that information so it would have been for Grand
Central to have said to Crossrail, "Have you any information
about the noise from this railway?" And they would have sent
the developer's pack.
19725. You are saying you would not have sent
that pack because there is no record of that. Can we have a copy
of that pack?
(Mr Thornely-Taylor) Yes.
19726. Mr Taylor: Thank you. We were
talking about the criterion for the operational railway, can you
explain briefly how that criterion is going to be met?
(Mr Thornely-Taylor) It
is going to be met by the Secretary of State requiring for a nominated
undertaker to put in the contracts for the construction of the
railway that it includes what will effectively be floating track
slabs, which we have heard about on more than one occasion, and
continuously welded rail so as to ensure that the predicted level
in the studio does not exceed this criterion by calling it the
GCSS criterion, being referred to NC20—3 expressed in third
octave bands, but it is easier to use GCSS, that is the agreed
criterion between both sides.
19727. Thank you. What confidence have you got
that that approach will ensure that the criterion is not exceeded?
(Mr Thornely-Taylor) I am
a consulting engineer and I have to continue in business for many
years to come, I hope, and, as has happened in the past, I am
satisfied that the advice that I am giving will produce a result
which is satisfactory, otherwise I would not be able to continue
as I have for some 39 years with dozens and dozens of railway
predictions which have brought satisfactory conclusions.
19728. Let us move on then to the criterion
for the constructional railway and there the Committee has heard
about NC25 being offered in all reasonably foreseeable circumstances.
What do you say about the appropriateness of protection afforded
to the studios by that criterion?
(Mr Thornely-Taylor) The
criterion itself, NC25, we have heard about and it would meet
the Dolby specification requirements. We have seen the predictions
that my practice has produced and even if you agreed with Dr Hunt
and added ten, the prediction still does not exceed NC25.
19729. Yes, I think if we put on the graph which
we have on the overhead, perhaps you can explain what is shown
here and that point about plus or minus 10dB.[32]
(Mr Thornely-Taylor) As we have
already seen, what is shown here is the actual prediction, the
little Ts on top show what happens if you add five, which is the
general uncertainty which has been applied to all the Crossrail
predictions. That takes this particular T up to the line here
which is labelled NC20. Dr Hunt suggests that five should be ten
which takes you up to the next one, which is NC25 and we are still
all right. In other words, if I should be wrong and he should
be right, all is not lost.
19730. Can you explain briefly why the Promoter
cannot offer a lower criterion than NC25 given that it has in
relation to operational noise?
(Mr Thornely-Taylor) The
reason is that as far as operational noise is concerned, the nominated
undertaker will have a very high degree of control over the design
of the operating railway. The temporary construction railway will
be owned, installed and operated by the contractor. Although he
will be subject to contract terms, there is a slightly longer
and more tenuous link down to what he does. We do not currently
know exactly what wagons and locomotives he will use. There are
different kinds of constructions, locomotives and wagons. We have
put a very large amount of effort into looking at what he is likely
to use and these predictions will be based on a requirement passed
on to the contractor that he does not use temporary vehicles with,
for example, un-sprung axle weight greater than a particular figure,
but there are still many things that are much more difficult to
control for the temporary railway than there are for the operating
railway. Therefore, I would not sleep well if I said to Crossrail
that they could give the same undertaking for the temporary railway
as they are for the operating railway.
19731. Let us turn to deal with this point about
tonality. Here we have a graph showing the output of your model
for a forecast for Studio 9, I think it is, no rail joint beneath
the premises for the temporary construction rail.[33]
Can you speak on this graph and deal with the concerns which have
been raised about tonality?
(Mr Thornely-Taylor) Yes, the
tonality means the sound is like somebody, for example, blowing
a trombone continuously on one note, a musical note, which continues
without varying in pitch. Underground railways, as the Committee
has heard from the visit we did at 55 Broadway, do not sound like
trombones or any other musical instrument, nevertheless, one of
the tests of this feature is when you look at a spectrum of third
octave bands, whether one of them sticks out above the others,
indeed, there is one that does stick out at 40 Hz. That is the
frequency of a very low rumble but the frequencies which are controlling
how loud it is are the ones that have come nearest to or, in this
case, exceed the so-called GCSS criterion. This is the one we
can meet for the operating railway but we are going a bit above
for the temporary construction railway. In this region, which
is the region which determines what you hear, no single third
octave band sticks up above the others and it is not tonal. I
can assure the Committee on that.
19732. In terms of the point about tonality
within the studio itself, so when somebody is listening to the
monitor and are doing a mix or are mastering a recording, to what
degree will the human ear be able to perceive tonalities at the
lower end of the third octave band?
19733. (Mr Thornely-Taylor) This
region here, which is way below GCSS criterion, is inaudible.
The human ear itself cannot hear anything at any level below this
point. If there is a great deal of sound pressure at very low
frequencies, and I am talking about tens of decibels above these
levels, you would call it vibrations, you would say the air is
vibrating, you cannot hear anything. As I just explained above
that point, this is the area which determines how loud it is.
19734. We have heard a number of concerns about
the recording of the human voice. What is the lowest significant
frequency of the human voice?
19735. (Mr Thornely-Taylor) Very
little energy occurs below this region in the human voice, a basso
profundo would do something around here, and sometimes I am a
basso profundo! Most of the energy is in this region and in calculating
speech interference it is all about this region.
19736. Do you know what the average specification
is for a television set in terms of the production of low frequency
noise when one is listening to a television or watching it?
(Mr Thornely-Taylor) It
is quite common for domestic scientific films to have very little
below 100Hz.
19737. Moving on to the points which were made
by Dr Hunt in relation to uncertainty, can you explain what investigations
you have done to validate the Findwave?[34]
19738. (Mr Thornely-Taylor) Findwave
has been used over a long period and it dates from the designing
of the Lantau Fixed Crossing in Hong Kong which is the very early
1990s. The way things work, because I am a commercial consultant,
is the client says, "We are developing this design and its
predictions as to what it is", and those predictions go into
a report whether we like it or not and they go into the file.
Then many years later the railway is completed and sometimes,
not always by any means, it is possible to go back and measure
particularly if there was a very clear legal commitment. An example
is Portcullis House which the Committee will know well. Arup,
who were the consulting engineers to the building, placed a very
strict limit on vibration—it was in octave bands—from
the reconstructed District Line, which the Jubilee Line project
built through Westminster Station, and that is on floating track
slab, although the rail is in need of maintenance as you can hear
a rumble as the train is coming into Westminster Station because
of the rail roughness which needs grinding. The Committee rooms
in Portcullis House are on the floor above and the District Line
runs through the basement of Portcullis House, and very strict
requirements were placed on the design of this. The comparison
between the predictions made with a very primitive version of
Findwave in the early 90s and the eventual upturn was extremely
good and we certainly achieved everything that was required. It
is that sort of thing which has happened in other places as well,
in Denmark and Sweden, where a lot of my work took place. Early
predictions match the subsequent measurements when the railway
has opened. For example, the Danish equivalent of the BBC building
is above one of the tunnels of Copenhagen Metro. I was an external
checker for the design work done by the Danish consultants called
COWI for the Copenhagen Metro. I subcontracted some work to them
a week ago and I asked them all about the broadcasting centre
and they confirmed that everything was extremely satisfactory
when the railway opened. There is a long history of predictions,
railways opening, everything turning out all right, hence the
reason why I am still in business.
19739. Unlike Dr Hunt you have not giving up
developing ground noise?
(Mr Thornely-Taylor) Findwave
is progressing all the time, acquiring new features, it is the
future as far as I am concerned and is a very important part of
my business. It has grossed seven figures and it is a very successful
tool and one of the most important things that I do.
32 Committee Ref: A221, Grand Central Studios Criterion-basement
studio 9-temporary construction railway, no rail joint (Octave
Band Mid Frequency, Hz) (SCN-20070220-006). Back
33
Committee Ref: A221, Grand Central Studios Criterion-basement
studio 9-temporary construction railway, no rail joint below the
studio (a Octave Band Mid Frequency, Hz) (SCN-20070220-007). Back
34
Crossrail Ref: P144, Findwave Validation-Comparison of measured
and modelled results-Up Tunnel and Down Tunnel (Octave Band Mid
Frequency, Hz) (SCN-20070220-003). Back
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