Examination of Witnesses (Questions 21220
- 21239)
21220. Ms Stephens: Is it possible to
ask a question?
21221. Chairman: It is not the norm,
but, yes.
21222. Ms Stephens: I just wonder if
you can explain why the 1882 cut through—
(Mr Fink) Underneath Cartier Circle?
21223. Yes.
(Mr Fink) The Petitioners from Poplar did send
me an email of a small cut, which Ms Lieven mentioned, running
underneath the roundabout at Cartier Circle. I think the points
were answered by Ms Lieven in as much as it does need to cut through
a Grade I listed wall and it would need to be a temporary structure.
I do not know whether all the vessels would be able to get out
through there and it does fall quite clearly within the Phase
1 construction of the Wood Wharf development and that is not a
matter which is under my control. That would be for Wood Wharf
to decide whether that was a feasible option or not.
The witness withdrew
21224. Chairman: Mr Fink, thank you very
much indeed for coming along, we are most grateful. What I am
going to do now is ask for the room to be cleared and give us
five minutes and then we will recall the meeting.
After a short break
21225. Chairman: Can I just say at the
outset that we want to thank both Petitioners who came here today
and, also, British Waterways Board, which we found very helpful
indeed. The Committee is sympathetic to the views expressed by
all sides, including that of the Promoters. Therefore, what I
am going to state is we welcome the engineering solution suggested
this morning, and we can see that all parties would welcome being
able to keep the Petitioners in Poplar Dock. We ask the Promoters
to go away and promote the relevant additional provisions and
the Supplementary Environmental Statement required. Well done,
Ms Stephens.
21226. Can I also say that I have been asked
by Members to commend you on your document, which was very good.
Thank you very much. Well done.
21227. Ms Lieven: Thank you, sir.
21228. Mr Brown: Thank you, from British
Waterways Board.
The Petition of the Trustees of the SS Robin
Trust.
Mr David Kampfner and Mrs Nishani Kampfner appeared
on behalf of the Petitioner.
21229. Mr Kampfner: Good morning, sir.
With your permission, my wife is co-founder of the charity and
has managed to be here today. We had a busy day on board the ship
but we have managed both to be here. With the Committee's permission,
can we both say a little bit about the project?
21230. Chairman: Like most partnerships,
there are two sides. Before you do, I would like to bring in Mr
Mould to outline the issue.
21231. Mr Mould: Thank you, sir. Mr Kampfner
and his wife appear for the SS Robin, which is a historic
steam ship which is currently moored in West India Dock North.
I believe you have been handed this little bundle of exhibits.
Is that right? Pages 1 to 16. If I can ask the Committee to look
at page 1 of 16, this is an aerial photograph of West India Dock
North.[8]
You can see that the SS Robin is presently moored towards
the eastern end of West India Dock North, just to the west of
the DLR railway bridge. You have found the location.
21232. Last week, on Day 79, you will recall
the Committee heard from Mr Julian Cartwright, who appeared to
present the Petition of other commercial boat owners currently
moored in West India Dock, and you see those boats shown on that
aerial photograph as well. The historic steam ship, the SS
Robin, is used, I believe, for exhibitions and other similar
purposes. Ms Lieven explained last week, when she opened our case
in relation to Mr Cartwright's Petition, that the effect of the
construction programme for the Isle of Dogs station is that the
commercial boats presently moored within West India Dock will
need to be relocated elsewhere within the dock complex, and that
is something that is necessary under both of the construction
scenarios that we have presented to the Committee.
21233. The reasons for that were briefly stated
by Ms Lieven when she explained the position to you. They, essentially,
result from the fact it is necessary, under the first scenario,
to partially drain this dock and, under the second scenario, the
dock is to be used as a repository for silt, and so it is not
possible to retain these boats in that location. So the focus
has turned to seeking to negotiate, particularly with Canary Wharf
Group and British Waterways Board, alternative locations for this
vessel and for the other commercial vessels. You heard from Ms
Lieven about the progress of negotiations in that respect last
week. Just to summarise the position: remember, we mentioned that
the preferred location was the Middle Branch, the Middle Dock,
and that you will recall, if you turn to page 2 of 16, was an
area of water just to the south of West India Dock North.[9]
You will see that area, Middle Branch Dock, is shown there.
21234. I mention that just to set the context
because the position with regard to the SS Robin is that
due to its size, particularly the height of the vessel, it is
not possible for it to be relocated to that dock. So in the case
of the SS Robin the solution that we are looking to achieve
is that it should go to South Dock. South Dock is also shown on
the plan which you have in front of you; it is the next body of
water to the south of the main Canary Wharf development area.
21235. My understanding is that negotiations
between ourselves, the Canary Wharf Group and British Waterways
Board are progressing positively in relation to that proposal.
At the moment it looks like there is a reasonably good prospect
that we will be able to secure that solution.
21236. The other point that was raised last
week by the Committee was that, inevitably, any relocation for
a commercial organisation is going to involve some costs that
would, obviously, not be incurred but for the Crossrail works.
You will recall that, I think, Mr Binley asked if we would write
to Mr Cartwright and to the Committee in order to explain what
the compensation regime would be in relation to reimbursement
of those costs, and we have done that. I think you have received
a letter from us addressed to Mr Cartwright. I have shown a copy
of that letter, dated 22 March 2007, to Mr Kampfner this morning.
In short, what we pointed out was that under the Bill there is
actually a specific compensation provision which deals with situations
where persons are deprived of a private right of navigation as
a result of the Crossrail works, which would be the situation
here, obviously, with the closure of Bellmouth Passage, and we
have explained that, that being the case, that right of compensation
would provide a route to reimbursement of the kinds of costs that
I have mentioned. That would apply as much to the SS Robin
as it would to the other commercial boat owners we were focusing
on last week.
21237. So, sir, that is the current position
in relation to this Petitioner, and I will hand over to Mr Kampfner.
21238. Mrs Kampfner: Actually, I am going
to start. My name is Nishani Kampfner, I am the co-founder of
the SS Robin Trust, a registered charity that was set up
in 2002. I have held the Chairman's position for the last five
years, was reappointed at the last board meeting.
21239. We have spent the last five years developing
what was a more or less derelict historic ship into a community
creative arts space, which benefits local schools, the local business
community and we are now starting to attract more regional visitors
as well. There are two concerns that we have. First of all, I
should say to the Committee that we are in support of the Crossrail
development and believe it will be very beneficial to the area.
The concerns that we have are the negative impact on the ship
during the construction and engineering works in the dock specifically.
The ship itself is on the National Historic Ships Register. She
is a fully listed vessel on the same register as Cutty Sark,
Belfast and SS Great Britain. She was locally built
in 1890 and we believe that her current berth is really a fitting
place for her in her more modern use as a community space. We
run a volunteer organisation that donates a lot of time and hours
to maintaining the ship on an ongoing basis, and many of those
volunteers are from the local community.
8 Crossrail Ref: P153, West India Dock North-Location
of boats belonging to Petitioners (TOWHLB-AP3-24-04-001). Back
9
Crossrail Ref: P155, Isle of Dogs Station-Millwall Docks (Plan
1) (TOWHLB-325-04-005). Back
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