Examination of Witnesses (Questions 21320
- 21339)
21320. The same station as suggested by the
direction from the House on the second reading to the Committee?
(Mr Winbourne) Yes.
21321. The same station?
(Mr Winbourne) Yes, Bond Street.
21322. The station that the Committee has been
directed to include in the proposal, that is correct is not it?
(Mr Winbourne) It is and it is not in exactly
the same position as they would have the Committee believe. They
have produced papers saying where I would put the station which
is rubbish. That station would go approximately under Wigmore
Street from the south side of Portland Square as far to the east
probably as James Street or thereabouts. This is not exact, so
we have not had an opportunity to work it out with senior engineers
and I believe it is possible to consider a cut-and-cover station
on that part of Wigmore Street as well because it is wide enough.
There again, instead of these huge tunnels with compensation granting
which I have given evidence on before and I do not want to harp
on that, but you will recall it, if you can go for a cut-and-cover
station again you are miles ahead, it is going to cost a third
of the other costs, maybe less.
21323. Mr Winbourne, the real issue is one of
costs, is it not?
(Mr Winbourne) Of course.
21324. It is one of the costs of the works consequential
upon AP3, that is correct, is it not?
(Mr Winbourne) It is one of the costs, but
it is also one of much less overall environmental disturbance.
21325. Disturbance and costs?
(Mr Winbourne) Both disturbance and costs.
21326. Sir, I would like to refer Mr Winbourne
to a page of evidence, which is page 6/9 of WESTCC-AP3-27—04.
It is on the screen.[14]
Have you seen this cost breakdown before?
(Mr Winbourne) I have seen this
document which does not help us to any great degree and the reason
it does not help us is that it does not give us the base cost
of the Crossrail Bond Street Station. This is what quantity surveyors
would call the extra overcost.
21327. When did you first see this document?
(Mr Winbourne) Shortly before the abortive
hearing that took place a couple or three weeks ago.
21328. It was at a meeting that I was at as
well.
(Mr Winbourne) Forgive me, we did get those
figures at the meeting where you were present, I forgot that,
at the consultation meeting and it then came in written form.
I asked at the consultation meeting for the base costs because
obviously for comparative purposes I needed to know what was their
original station cost and how much more was this and we never
got the figures. This is why I have put—you will forgive
the expression—a guestimate in, but I think their original
Bond Street Station and, again, I do not want to harp on the point
but I will refer back to the fact that it does not connect to
Oxford Circus which is terribly important. I think their original
Bond Street Station was probably approaching £0.5 billion
in itself before these costs were added on. These costs are due
to totally predictable extension of the Jubilee Line to the east
causing pressures where Bond Street Station is now closed from
time to time, the same as Oxford Circus, because of overcrowding.
Again, and I have referred to this in evidence before but I will
touch on it, if you have a huge new booking hall in a concrete
box which is a public car park reinforced under Cavendish Square,
you have got all the space you need, you can connect both stations
by escalators and travelators and indeed to Crossrail platforms,
if you want Crossrail. In other words, what I am saying is that
the concrete box job needs doing anyway.
21329. Mr Winbourne, let us break down those
statements. You say, I think I heard you correctly, that you would
estimate the cost of the AP3 works at Bond Street to be £0.5
billion, is that correct?
(Mr Winbourne) Yes, what I say towards the
end, it goes over the page in my balance sheet, we are at number
three, you will see the important thing, I say "I put a guestimate
of £500 million because they gave us no figures" and
I said that at the meeting that you were present at Mr Levaggi
and they did not seek to argue and they are now putting a further
£150 million and it could even get to several hundred.
21330. Let us focus on what they are saying,
they say, "Purchase of land minerals and permanent rights
including easements to be estimated at £50 million".
(Mr Winbourne) Exactly.
21331. What is your view of that, purchase of
land minerals and easements at £50 million?
(Mr Winbourne) I am not clear whether that
is for the one building or whether it includes two others at Hanbury
Square because the problem is they are not giving us a breakdown.
21332. When you say the one building, can you
identify it?
(Mr Winbourne) I meant the one at Oxford Street,
but I can well believe that would be £50 million. I am a
valuer and I can well believe that one alone could be that sort
of money. It was number 354 to 358 shops with offices over them.
21333. Do you believe that further buildings
would have to be acquired under this process?
(Mr Winbourne) Originally they were proposing
to knock down one building on the south side of Oxford Street
for the Bond Street Station. Then, they were going to dig up Hanover
Square. They are no longer going to dig up Hanover Square, thank
goodness, they are acquiring I think it is 18 and 19 Hanover Square,
I hope I have got the numbers right, two more buildings and this
one. There are at least four buildings that they are knocking
down. With respect, the proposal that I am suggesting is that
there will be no buildings to knock down. There will be a public
car park to be reallocated and recycled for good use and what
is more, on the north side of Oxford Street the most impressive
shopping patch in Europe from John Lewis to Marks & Spencer's,
there will be property spin-off which will probably mean that
the station will cost nothing.
21334. You say that up to how many buildings
may be acquired?
(Mr Winbourne) I am not sure if it is four
or five, certainly four.
21335. On your more conservative estimate, if
four buildings are acquired in that part of London, what could
that do to this cost estimate of £50 million?
(Mr Winbourne) It must be £150 million,
it might be £200 million, but conservatively £150 million.
21336. Station improvements, £102,856,000.
What do you feel about that estimate?
(Mr Winbourne) I cannot argue with them except
to try to grapple with minimum figures to try and get some idea
of what the overall cost is because they will not give it to me.
At the risk of emphasis, I make the point that the station entrances
will stay pretty well in the same places subject to additional
ones, but if we put the platforms and station halls where I say,
there will be a queue of property developers who will want to
have basement level access to prime shopping in Oxford Street
on the north side which is the best side. I have been dealing
with West End shop owners for my whole career.
21337. Mr Winbourne, you say you cannot argue
with those figures, what do you mean by that?
(Mr Winbourne) I simply accept them as they
give them to me, even though they are not sufficient.
21338. Has any background to that particular
theme been given to you?
(Mr Winbourne) I am simply saying that they
throw some light on it because—
21339. Can you tell me what light the one line
in front of us gives to you, it is a station worth £102 million,
what line does that show on that figure? How do you think that
figure has been calculated?
(Mr Winbourne) I am sorry, they are their calculations.
I am sorry, I am not trying to be difficult, I am not trying to
assert that I know how they got to their figures, I am assuming
they did a proper job.
14 Committee Ref: A230, Cost of works and land at
Bond Street Station, Westminster (SCN-20070328-002). Back
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