Examination of Witnesses (Questions 21500
- 21519)
21500. Failing that, if I am right, you heard
me say that you would want an option, not subject to conditions
and caveats and the code that is suggested by the Secretary of
State, to purchase back if you cannot have that by way of lease,
the remainder of the land at the appropriate market value?
(Mr Charlesworth) If at all possible, I would,
yes.
21501. Is there anything you would like to add
at this stage, Mr Charlesworth?
(Mr Charlesworth) No, only to say that I have
co-operated in every possible way that I can with Crossrail. I
was only in the building, probably, nine months or a year when
all of a sudden this sort of came on top as such, and they came
in with this petition and said what they were going to do—I
have just spent something in the order of £1 million developing
this building and getting it to exactly how we wanted it. Obviously,
the building itself—it is a lovely building; it is where
they used to make the armaments in the War and it is a bit of
history attached to it, and I particularly liked the building
at the time and wanted to retain it. So to say I was put out and
a bit peeved was a complete and utter understatement. As I said,
we co-operated, and I understand the need for the station. We
need to move it forward with congestion and whatever, so I do
understand. My son, actually, has a house just behind the actual
unit, which we bought, and it is a Berkeley Homes house. But I
just feel slightly aggrieved at the way it has been done and how
I have been treated and, really, I went into all of this with
solicitors and barristers and all the different people, and spent
God knows how much—there must be in excess of £100,000
in legal bills—and I think them probably knowing at the
time there was probably going to be this station anyway. I would
have liked some sort of warning or some sort of forethought on
it—you know, from anybody.
21502. Obviously, if you were to be awarded
by the Committee (and I will deal with that in submissions), there
are taxation provisions, but you are indicating a global sum of
around £100,000. You say "legal fees" but that
includes also, as I understand it, the engineering costs.
(Mr Charlesworth) The engineering costs as
well.
21503. It is a global figure. That does not
include my fees! Unless there is anything we can assist further
with for the Committee, thank you.
Cross-examined by Mr Mould
21504. Mr Mould: Just one or two questions,
Mr Charlesworth, if I may. Just so the Committee is clear on the
land ownership position: your company has a long under-lease of
the premises at 16 Gunnery Terrace, does it not?
(Mr Charlesworth) It is 1,000 years.
21505. Nine-nine-nine. Near enough. Your landlords
are C&P, are they not?
(Mr Charlesworth) They are, yes.
21506. You understand they are head lessees
and the freeholder is the London Development Agency.
(Mr Charlesworth) Yes.
21507. So the site is in multiple ownership
in that sense. That is right, is it not?
(Mr Charlesworth) Mmm.
21508. You lease the premises—your company—as
your place of business.
(Mr Charlesworth) I do, yes.
21509. That is its principle virtue to you,
that it provides you with an appropriate place in which to conduct
your business. Is that fair?
(Mr Charlesworth) Yes.
21510. You have acknowledged that in order for
the Crossrail proposals for Woolwich Station to proceed you accept
that it is necessary for the building within which you conduct
your business to be demolished.
(Mr Charlesworth) I do not concede that. I
have not seen every engineer's report possible. I was not going
to sort of go down another road of employing more engineers, but
when they first actually did this development, I see that you
raised the way the tunnel comes up—originally they were
going to put it a lot lower when it suited them and bring it up
until it was not quite vertical and it was not a funicular railway
but most certainly it was going to come up at a lot steeper angle
than is now the case.
21511. Ms Lieven dealt with that in opening.
I do not think you challenge, do you, that, from an engineering
point of view, it is necessary to proceed with the proposal for
the station in the way that we have described to the Committee?
(Mr Charlesworth) I would not challenge it
but I do not know that there is not another option.
21512. On the assumption that those proposals
go forward and your building is then demolished, clearly so far
as your principal interest in the site is concerned it has gone
away; you need to find somewhere else from which to do your business.
That is right, is it not?
(Mr Charlesworth) Yes.
21513. I do not know if you are aware of this,
but the works to construct the station box are expected to last
about three years and seven months. Have you seen that in the
statement?
(Mr Charlesworth) I have not read every detail
but I did read something about three years, and I would probably
anticipate about five.
21514. You have mentioned that you would be
looking for some sort of commitment from the Promoter that if
he does acquire your building he acquires it to enable the station
box fitting-out works at Woolwich to be carried out. You accept
that.
(Mr Charlesworth) Yes.
21515. Can we put up page 05-011 from the Petitioner's
document, just so the Committee can see what we have committed
to.[17]
Just glance down, if you will please. This is from our Petition
Response Document. I expect you have seen it before.
(Mr Charlesworth) Mm.
21516. Paragraph 17. Do you see there: "The
Promoter has already provided the Petitioner with commitments
regarding the circumstances in which the powers of acquisition
of its land will be exercised ... " (and it refers to earlier
correspondence). It quotes two passages. Firstly: "The Promoter
will not exercise its powers of compulsory acquisition over your
clients' property before there is a commitment on the funding
of the rest of the Crossrail scheme (i.e. other than provision
of a station box and other station works at Woolwich)" and,
secondly: "it will not exercise its powers of compulsory
acquisition over your clients' property before there is a commitment
on the funding of the rest of the south-eastern spur (other than
provision of a station box and other station works at Woolwich)
and that the land will be acquired for the purposes of Crossrail."
You have seen that before. Would you accept that you do have there
a firm commitment from the Promoter that, at least, so far as
your land is concerned, it will not be taken from you for the
purposes of Crossrail unless and until the Secretary of State
is committed to the funding of the rest of the scheme as a whole,
and indeed the rest of the south-eastern section? The gives you
the comfort you need, does it not, in relation to the theoretical
uncertainties that Mr Jones mentioned when he opened the case,
as to whether and when and how far the scheme for Woolwich Station
will be proceeded with. Is that right?
(Mr Charlesworth) Yes, definitely. There is
no problem there.
21517. Thank you very much. Finally, just in
relation to compensation, you have agreed that your principal
interest in the building is as a place of business. It has been
explained to you, has it, that on being displaced from the building
so that it can be demolished for Crossrail purposes, you will
be entitled to receive compensation which reflects the open market
value of your long lease? That has been explained to you, has
it?
(Mr Charlesworth) Yes, it has.
21518. You will also be entitled to claim back
the costs which are incurred in relocating your business to other
premises.
(Mr Charlesworth) Yes.
21519. We have also committed, have we not,
to giving you 12 months' notice of entry into your premises for
the purposes of Crossrail works? We have given you that commitment
already.
(Mr Charlesworth) Yes, I agree with that. May
I just say something? Obviously, you have committed to all of
this and you are telling me to read this paragraph 17. In it you
say you might not take the land and if you do not take the land
that is fine, but then what compensation do I get for being messed
around for the last 18 months? I have not taken management time
into this—into my costs. I have not even included management
time and the amount of meetings with Bircham Dyson Bell and your
people.
17 Committee Ref: A247, Crossrail Petitioner's Response
Document, Para 17-Commitment to proceed with project in advance
of acquisition (GRCHLB-AP4-6-05-011). Back
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