Examination of Witnesses (Questions 40-59)
RT HON
JAMES PURNELL
MP AND MR
JONATHAN STEPHENS
25 OCTOBER 2007
Q40 Philip Davies: One final point,
which is admittedly a bee in my bonnet and the other Committee
members will be sick of me mentioning it. We have had this restriction
on junk food advertising in order to try to sort out the obesity
problem, which I felt was a triumph for the nanny state and would
not make any difference whatsoever to obesity. One of the points
I made at the time was that this would be the start of something
bigger and this was the thin end of the wedge. Even I was surprised
by the speed with which Alan Johnson announced a couple of weeks
ago that the Government would perhaps be going even further with
these restrictions before we had any idea of what the impact of
the original restrictions was. What discussions had he had with
you about that announcement and what impact do you feel that would
have on things like children's programming?
James Purnell: We agreed the announcement
in the normal way and agreed the wording of that and indeed we
are part of the group which is looking at tackling obesity of
which advertising of food is only one aspect. We are absolutely
clear that it is important for us to make sure that advertising
plays its role in ensuring that we can tackle the increase in
obesity, which is a very serious issue in this country. That is
why Ofcom introduced the changes that it did. In fact we had already
said that Ofcom would be reviewing that in 2008 based on the evidence.
The Government are looking not just at Ofcom's role but, as Alan
said in his statement in the chamber, the wider impact across
the whole range of the media of advertising on obesity, particularly
amongst children. That is the responsible thing to do, but it
must be based on evidence.
Q41 Philip Davies: Will it also be
based on the impact it will have on broadcasters?
James Purnell: Of course. That
is exactly what Ofcom did and that is exactly the process they
will go through in the already-announced review which Ofcom are
due to do.
Q42 Paul Farrelly: Clearly there
is an issue about how public service broadcasting content is supported
or encouraged in the digital age. At the moment we have the BBC
which has had a bit of a kick because it got far less money than
it wanted. It is going through massive change now with the cuts
which it has been making, the move to Manchester and its responsibilities
towards digital switchover. Is it not premature now to talk about
top-slicing the BBC's licence fee on top of all that, rather than
looking at other options such as setting up a trust fund as they
did in places like Canada?
James Purnell: I want to take
issue with the idea that we gave them a kick. They asked for a
certain level of funding, as everybody does, making the best case
they can. We looked at that. It was thought that greater efficiencies
were possible and we gave them a settlement—
Q43 Paul Farrelly: That loose language
is not the question.
James Purnell: Let us recall what
the process was. People said we should not give them a Charter
at all. We did. People said we should not give it to them for
ten years. We did. People said we should not continue the licence
fee. We did. We gave them a six-year settlement, we gave them
a settlement which allows them to get an extra £1.2 billion
above that if the predictions are realised about efficiency and
household growth, so that is a sign of confidence.
Q44 Paul Farrelly: The question was
about top-slicing.
James Purnell: I just wanted to
put that in context. We are not bringing forward proposals for
top-slicing at this stage or for a trust or for anything in particular.
What we are saying is that public service broadcasting is an important
part of British culture, that the BBC and the other public service
broadcasters are one of the great things about Britain in my view,
but the regime under which that has been achieved is changing
incredibly quickly and therefore we have to have serious thinking
about how we achieve those goals in a completely different area,
in a world in which the spectrum which is being given to people
is not the only way to reach the whole of the TV audience. People
will be able to do it after switchover by just contracting with
digital terrestrial, cable and satellite.
Q45 Paul Farrelly: Can you give the
Committee some idea of how far you have progressed with these
reviews and when you expect to come to some conclusions either
for consultation or decision?
James Purnell: We will start the
seminars in January; we will have a series of seminars over the
next year. We are putting the think tank in place and will advertise
for people to join us to work in that think tank shortly. We will
be very happy to work with members of the Committee on exactly
that. It is a very important task.
Q46 Paul Farrelly: Has no timetable
been set down for a conclusion?
James Purnell: We have set out
the timetable for the PSB review which Ofcom are doing, for our
review after that. Clearly we will have to have some conclusions
in place before switchover.
Q47 Paul Farrelly: Before switchover
has finished. It has already started.
James Purnell: Yes, before switchover
has finished.
Q48 Alan Keen: Right from the very
beginning of highly entertaining programmes like Pop Idol—and
they have been going a few years now—I have never ever trusted
them because they have never declared the voting figures. There
is a certain amount of deception now because it keeps people phoning
in again. Should Ofcom look at that in detail as well? As politicians
we are used to seeing everything put out as it is and it has never
seemed right to me from when they started five, six, seven years
ago. I felt it was wrong for them not to publish the voting figures.
Should Ofcom look at that?
James Purnell: If you are upset
about that or people are upset about it you can make a complaint
to Ofcom or make representation to the programme makers. It is
not for me to say that.
Q49 Rosemary McKenna: Can we move
on to digital switchover? Last week Whitehaven switched to digital.
Are you confident that your communications strategy, particularly
with help schemes for vulnerable groups, will work over the next
five years given that around about 8% of people had not already
gone digital in Whitehaven before the BBC2 switch-off?
James Purnell: I am very impressed
by the preparations which Digital UK have made and indeed which
all the stakeholders in Whitehaven have achieved and it will be
a very useful exercise for us to learn from. We have to be clear
about our expectations about this. It is an extremely complicated
programme, it is one which is happening all over the industrialised
world, all over Europe, all over America and there will be hitches
and glitches along the way. Getting millions of people to come
over to digital is a very ambitious task. However, I do think
it is an important one and it is one which reflects the fact that
the UK has had a leading role in digital television and by completing
the digital transition and being able both to make sure everyone
has access to digital TV but also having new spectrum being released
for new applications we shall be able to make sure the UK can
stay at the forefront of that digital change.
Q50 Rosemary McKenna: I am obviously
particularly interested in Scotland because Borders is next in
line. We have been watching very closely what was happening. I
always campaigned for the voluntary sector to be very much involved
and Digital UK have done that and that is very, very good. However,
I believe one of the issues which emerged last week was that there
are groups that the voluntary sector does not cover, particularly
the elderly, those people who are fiercely independent and who
do not want to have anything to do with the voluntary sector.
I believe we learned last week that is one of the areas where
there is a problem and somehow or other we have to get around
that.
James Purnell: We work very closely
with the voluntary sector and it is something which, as has happened
in Whitehaven, we want to do as the programme rolls out. We also
want to see whether we can do more with individual volunteers.
We are working with local authorities, social housing providers
and we will use absolutely every single method we can to reach
people. We are writing to everybody who is eligible for the help
scheme; there is a wide range of contacting people going on. At
the end of the day, if people decide not to take up the help,
we cannot force them.
Q51 Rosemary McKenna: I believe the
drop-in centres were very important in that regard. People who
had not already done anything at least went to a drop-in centre
and got some information and assistance.
James Purnell: Yes, that is right.
Q52 Rosemary McKenna: The review
will of course make all of these issues clear. One of the issues
people are still concerned about is retailers misselling.
James Purnell: The retailers in
Whitehaven have really played a very helpful role. You may have
seen that they recently announced they would be phasing out the
sale of analogue equipment in those regions where switchover is
happening and we very much welcome that.
Q53 Rosemary McKenna: The so-called
digital dividend review, the release of spectrum. Public service
broadcasters have been saying that the additional spectrum should
be allocated to them so that they can provide HD services on Freeview.
Do their arguments stack up?
James Purnell: There would have
to be a very high threshold of persuasion before we started to
allocate the released spectrum to existing users without making
it available for other people to bid for. The reason we have said
that we will pursue market mechanisms to achieve that is because
that is the best way of revealing the most economic use for them
and that is better than Government deciding on individual uses
for that released spectrum. However, Ofcom are working with the
broadcasters on whether there is capacity to be found within the
existing allocation to digital terrestrial so that more HD services
could be provided in that. We have very strongly encouraged the
broadcasters to work with Ofcom on that.
Q54 Rosemary McKenna: So they are
not persuaded.
James Purnell: You might be able
to do more services, potentially HD services, through the existing
allocation which people have. It would require individual consumers
to buy new equipment, but receiving HD channels requires people
to buy new equipment in any case.
Q55 Chairman: While we are on switchover,
you will be aware that discussion has begun about when and whether
we should switch off the radio analogue transmissions. The radio
industry has indicated that it wants a bit more certainty about
the future. Have you reached any preliminary conclusions yet?
James Purnell: We are going to
be setting up a group to look at this, think about radio and the
issues which have been raised. That is exactly the same approach
we used for television. It is worth saying that it is a very significant
task. There are millions of sets, sets in people's cars, but we
also recognise the very great importance of digital and the figures
today show that there has been a very significant increase in
listening to digital, for example. We want to work with the radio
industry and Ofcom and with consumer groups and with the BBC on
that and we shall be making announcements on that shortly.
Q56 Chairman: So you would now say
the question is not whether but when.
James Purnell: We would say we
have set up a group to give us some views on that.
Q57 Mr Sanders: One of the things
which concerned us when we were looking at digital switchover
was the possibility of cowboy operators giving poor and dishonest
advice to consumers as to what equipment they may need when this
process takes place. What we have seen in Whitehaven is a very
small-scale switchover. We are now going to move into much wider
areas of coverage where the opportunities for misinformation are
that much greater. Can you give us an assurance that you will
use whatever power you have and liaise with other departments
which have enforcement capabilities to crack down on anyone fooling
people and misinforming people through this process?
James Purnell: Yes.
Mr Sanders: Good answer.
Q58 Alan Keen: A few quick questions
on sport. In June 2006 the Secretary of State said that Sport
England were going to be more focused. Sport England are looking
at it slightly differently and saying that they have to be more
focused because so much money has been taken away from grassroots
to the Olympics. How do you see that? Your Department still has
to get the transfer of more money through Parliament.
James Purnell: Two slightly different
issues there. In terms of sport, as a Government we have actually
found an extra £100 million for school sport and we are making
fantastic progress on increasing the amount of sport in schools.
We have overachieved our target in terms of the proportion of
pupils doing two hours and we now want to give all children the
chance of doing five hours. I would not want a perception that
we are going backwards on that; we are massively improving that
and the Olympics are a great opportunity to raise participation
further, indeed one of our key commitments as part of the legacy.
As part of our spending review we are talking to Sport England
about their goals and arrangements for the next spending review
period and will announce that when we have concluded those discussions.
In terms of the Lottery Order, we are saying that we are laying
today the Order which will enact the funding package and the take
from the Lottery to go to the Olympic Lottery Distributor. It
is worth saying that it is absolutely appropriate for the Olympics
to be one of the things the Lottery funds and indeed I think that
was a matter of cross-party consensus when the bid was first put
in. In the same way that the Lottery, for example, funded the
Millennium Commission—20% of the Lottery in its initial
period went to the Millennium Commission—it is appropriate
for the Lottery to help to pay for the Olympics. As part of the
new public funding package for the Olympics there has actually
been an increase from the exchequer of £5 billion and the
proportion coming from the Lottery has fallen from just under
half to just under 25%. It is a fair ask which we are making of
the Lottery Distributor and our goal, as expressed in the memorandum
of understanding with the Mayor, is that that should then be repaid
from land sales after 2012. We think the Olympics will be great
for Britain. We think they are going to be good for sport and
indeed for culture and we think this is a reasonable approach.
We have laid the Order to do that today and we will debate that
in both Houses.
Q59 Chairman: Debate it in both Houses
where? In committee or on the floor?
James Purnell: That is for business
managers to decide. I would not want to prejudge that.
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