Examination of Witnesses (Questions 231
- 239)
TUESDAY 13 JUNE 2006
MR ANDREW
YEATES, MS
ANGELA MILLS
WADE, MS
SANTHA RASAIAH
AND MS
CATHERINE COURTNEY
Chairman: Good morning everybody and
welcome to the fourth session of the Committee's inquiry into
new media and the opportunities and challenges which it offers
to creative industries. Can I welcome to the first part of our
morning session Andrew Yeates, who is representing the Association
of Online Publishers; Angela Mills Wade of the British Internet
Publishers Alliance; and Santha Rasaiah and Catherine Courtney
of the Newspaper Society. Can I ask Adrian Sanders to commence.
Q231 Mr Sanders: A question about
the BBC; what is the impact of the BBC's new media activities
on your businesses? Are the BBC's new media activities undermining
(or likely to undermine) the viability of commercial business
models, or are they healthy competition?
Ms Mills Wade: Good morning everybody.
I think the BBC's Creative Futures paper and Mark Thompson's
recent speech and articles are rather disturbing as they show
just how far the BBC has already expanded since the last major
review, the Graf Review, and will continue to do so. I think the
impact on the commercial sector of these rather expansionist plans
cannot be under-estimated and this affects every stage of our
businesses, from the original concept, putting the ideas together,
to development, to funding, to finding the investors, to promotion
and marketing and eventual roll-out. There can be no doubt that
the BBC now sees itself as a global multi-media player and indeed
cites itself as a possible competitor to other global media players
such as Google and AOL. I think this does raise serious questions
and we wonder whether the new system of governance that is being
put in place with a public value test—which, note, is "value"
not "interest" which is harder to define—and only
one single service licence to cover the whole of the BBC Online
offer, is going to be robust and rigorous enough to measure the
effects on the private sector. We are worried about that and we
are also worried about other things that the BBC has talked about
such as starting to fund part of their online service by advertising.
Such a move, albeit to start with outside the UK, would have an
impact on publishers, and online publishers in particular in the
UK because many of the registered users of the major newspaper
sites are outside the UK. If they did start to sell advertising
on any part of their service this would depress advertising rates
in the UK because they are such a huge player, and that would
damage competition.
Q232 Mr Sanders: BBC World when broadcast
outside of the UK carries advertising so how would online advertising
differ from that?
Ms Mills Wade: I think it would
be a really major enterprise to sell advertising on the online
services and it would have a bigger impact than their advertising
on BBC World. We think there is a danger that advertising would
start creeping into the whole of the online offer and that they
are setting up something for the future beyond the next licence
fee.
Q233 Mr Sanders: Can you put a figure
on what you are thinking it would take out of your advertising
take?
Ms Mills Wade: We could try and
measure that for you and let you have those statistics, yes. Obviously
the online advertising revenue figures are being measured now
so we could try and make that assessment for you, certainly.
Ms Rasaiah: There is a particular
concern from the regional newspaper industry about the BBC's aspirations
for ultra local television services, which also of course fall
upon their Where I Live web sites and other community activities
As regional newspaper companies of all sizes—small independents
as well as the groups—are investing and innovating and developing
in this area, there is an issue about the impact of the entrance
of the BBC, which is licence-fee funded so free from the commercial
concerns that concern our members, could have upon the development
of that area. Obviously the BBC at the moment is conducting a
pilot project in the Midlands but our members have a real concern
that the regulatory framework that is proposed is not actually
going to address whether there is going to be a bad effect upon
the commercial sector. It is set up in such a way that it is the
BBC that decides whether it can launch those new services Although
the public service value test does incorporate a market impact
test, even if that shows that the BBC's proposed service is going
to have an adverse market impact upon its competitors, the BBC
can still decide to go ahead. That does not address the concerns
that I think are covered in the Government's own regulatory impact
assessment. Concerns were identified, for example, by the Graf
Review as to whether the mere fact that the BBC is going to go
into an area with licence fee funding could deter competitors
from investing in that area and the negative impact that that
could have. Or whether, as the House of Lords Select Committee
recommended, that if there was a possibility that the BBC's launch
of new services could stifle other services provided by commercial
competitors, it should not be allowed to do so. If you read the
regulatory impact assessment, the Government itself says that
the public service value test might reduce the risk but it does
not say that it would prevent it. That is a real concern at the
moment, particularly while this is such a developing area.
Q234 Mr Sanders: How do you prove
that if the BBC was not engaging in a new activity that the commercial
sector would have engaged in that commercial activity in the absence
of the BBC? In a sense, until the BBC moves into that area, if
there is not any commercial provision, then clearly they are not
treading on anybody else's toes.
Ms Mills Wade: There are two other
areas that they have already said they are going to go into. For
example, they are going to launch a broadband section aimed at
young people, a teen brand. You know very well that there are
lots and lots of commerical magazines, online sites, newspaper
sections that already serve this teen market plentifully
Q235 Mr Sanders: What are you more
afraid of? Are you more afraid of the fact that the BBC is doing
this on the back of licence fee money or are you in the first
part of your answer more worried about the BBC competing with
you for advertising? You cannot argue it both ways
Ms Rasaiah: It is the same issue
because a lot of this is about audience and audience fragmentation,
whether the BBC is taking advertising or not,—
Q236 Mr Sanders: If people want to
watch it on the BBC, they are going to watch it on the BBC. Is
it not their choice?
Ms Rasaiah: It is a question of
whether or not the people want those services and whether the
BBC providing it will deter other people from providing it or
deter the commercial sector from being able to develop those services.
Q237 Mr Sanders: But if the commercial
sector is not providing that service, why should the BBC not provide
that service in their absence?
Ms Mills Wade: Which areas are
they?
Ms Rasaiah: The commercial sector
is in these areas and is developing these areas and there are
plans from the BBC, for example, for ultra local television where
they have been very clear about their aspirations, that they want
to roll ahead with 60 ultra local television services. That is
on the basis of one pilot project. There is not going to be a
separate market impact assessment in any of those in other areas.
Q238 Mr Sanders: That market clearly
is not there because the commercial sector does not have 60 ultra
local television services.
Ms Rasaiah: The commercial sector
is developing those services. You can see local television services
which are being developed by the Manchester Evening News
and other audiovisual/online services in other areas. It is at
this particular time when people are innovating and trying to
find the commercial model that, yes, then there is a threat that
if you have a BBC which comes in, it is using licence fee funded
money, so it is free from all the commercial pressures and all
the commercial considerations that govern their competitors who
do not have that public funding. As the Graf Review said, there
is a real risk that others are deterred from even entering those
markets and thereby affecting them, or else it could stifle those
which have developed, or make it more difficult to establish such
services. If you are having a revised regulatory framework, surely
it must really address those issues carefully to make sure that
that does not happen.
Ms Mills Wade: The BBC has said
that it is going to deliver content via mobile devices. Already
that is an area which is extremely well served by the private
sector, not just our members but generally, and this forms part
of their wider cross-media strategy. It is almost as if they are
setting themselves up for a post print digital newspaper. Is this
what we want? Do we want the British Publishing Corporation to
take over from the British Broadcasting Corporation? If so, that
should be clearly defined according to a remit and funded accordingly,
but at the moment they are just land-grabbing, as people have
said in the press, and it is very, very disconcerting. Even the
mere mention of ideas unsettles the private sector and who dares
go where the BBC may dominate? That is the real dampener on innovation
in the private sector. It is almost as if they are trying to roll
over a monopoly status which may have been appropriate for a broadcasting
market but not for a wider market, and it is almost a con trick.
They have got this secure funding, unrivaled cross-promotion opportunities
and can leverage their brands. It is very easy for them quickly
to step into an area which may be under development and really
dominate it. It really is a danger.
Ms Rasaiah: It is not a question
of there being a lacuna in that area. If you look at BBC ultra
local services which are not just broadcast but also the online
back up to them, the regional and local newspapers are already
there providing local journalism. And they are providing it to
an extent that is second to none. It is questionable whether the
BBC will be putting in as many journalists and giving the kind
of coverage that the local press already do in those areas and
using what the local press are using to develop their own online
provision of local journalism, and other local services, as well
as their local commercial services.
Q239 Chairman: I must allow Andrew
Yeates, who has not said anything on behalf of the Association
of Online Publishers, to come in.
Mr Yeates: I have not on this
subject. The BBC are members of the UK Association of Online Publishers.
From the point of view of our Association obviously we are interested
to see how the public service test operates for new services.
We do hope that the checks and balances for application of the
"public value" test will allow for a careful review
of the extent of a new service, and particularly the system for
reviewing when there are significant changes to a service, because
it is a natural reaction to seek to be able to do as much as you
can when you are launching a new service. If a service licence
is too broadly drawn and there is not an opportunity to come back
and review that when it is realised that the opportunities afforded
under a licence cover you three or four new markets rather than
just one concerns would arise. It is important that there are
opportunities to review such concerns at a later date.
Q240 Paul Farrelly: I will declare
my interest now as a fully paid-up member of the National Union
of Journalists. You will forgive me if I sound a note of scepticism
when I see the Newspaper Society riding to the defence of commercial
television companies with regard to ultra local television which
you have mentioned; commercial companies which may charge and
introduce advertising, which is more competition than the BBC.
I have seen over many years how newspapers have been very, very
adept locally at enhancing their own local monopolies, taking
over free sheets and smaller newspapers, and now going into the
Internet advertising sector. It strikes me sometimes when you
look at the operation of local newspaper monopolies around the
country, that many people will welcome ultra local television
from sources such as the BBC because it provides a spur and competition
against reporting that is often lazy, inaccurate and late. What
would you say to that?
Ms Rasaiah: I would hope to rebut
it if not to refute it!. In terms of the local newspaper industry
`coming to the aid' of commercial television, we are not just
talking about broadcasting. The BBC's ultra local television activities
cover not only broadcasting but the development of its online
activities and other community involvement, which are in direct
competition with local newspapers obviously. About a third of
the workforce of the local newspaper industry is employed in an
editorial capacity. I do not think there is any other commercial
sector that covers the hard news and the community news and the
community interests in the way that the local and regional newspaper
industry does. I do not think it is lazy journalism. It is a fact
that newspaper companies have invested in journalism, they have
invested in the development of their printed newspapers, millions
have been put into presses and production, as well as of course
in a changing world adapting to the new technology, in developing
their new services, as their readers, as their advertisers, as
their consumers want in the way that they want. As far as being
local monopolies, no they are not. There is fierce competition
from all sectors for advertising, and indeed for other information
services, and local and regional newspaper companies have no problems
with engaging in fair competition against the other developing
commercial sectors with the same conditions applying to all. The
issue with the BBC and its proposals is that these are licence-fee
funded proposals. It is not a level playing field.
Q241 Mr Evans: Having said that,
the BBC Online services are brilliant, are they not?
Ms Mills Wade: You would expect
it with that amount of money!
Q242 Mr Evans: Yes but they are brilliant.
I cannot think of any online services that provide news better
than the BBC pages. The commercial online pages come nowhere near
providing anything like the sort of information that you get off
the BBC Online services. They are fantastic.
Ms Mills Wade: I think the newspaper
sites are fantastic too.
Q243 Mr Evans: There is nothing to
compare. Do you not think it is good that the BBC are there pitching
a level of excellence to which then the commercial sector has
to come in and compete?
Ms Rasaiah: If you are talking
about the BBC at a local level, I would argue that there is a
greater depth in terms of regional and local newspapers, whether
it is their print or their online journalism compared to what
the BBC is doing. I would not necessarily accept that the BBC
is setting the gold standard. The issue is whether the BBC in
pursuing those activities is going to be deterring others in the
commercial sector from doing that, who are investing as much in
journalism and as much in developing the other sites.
Q244 Mr Evans: The problem is trying
to prove that, is it not, because the commercial sector has been
very slow. I agree with Adrian and Paul. Why have they not already
done something?
Ms Rasaiah: They are doing things.
Q245 Mr Evans: It is very slow. I
cannot think of anything in my own region.
Ms Rasaiah: There are online local
and regional newspapers, 500 web sites, innovative services, they
are video streaming, they are podcasting. There is tremendous
development, whether it is within the editorial sectors, have
a look at things that Liverpool Daily Post and Archant have been
doing in their online business pages-, or the community sites
and community journalism that newspapers are developing. They
are into blogging—.
Q246 Mr Evans: In which case you
should not have any problem. If they are as good as you say then
they are going to survive and flourish.
Ms Rasaiah: Yes, but you are up
against a rival which has licence fee-funded public money to support
its efforts whereas newspapers are working in a commercial environment.
Q247 Paul Farrelly: Just one follow
up because I am interested. You are going to give this Committee
on behalf of your society a guarantee that should commercial television
providers set up ultra local television stations that your members
will not try their utmost to drive that competitor out of business?
Ms Rasaiah: That is fair competition.
I have already said insofar as commercial competition is concerned,
local and regional newspapers already face fierce competition.
If commercial television companies are developing into that area
that is a further competitor to local and regional press. But
it is fair competition. Those commercial television companies
are not being backed by licence-fee funding and public money that
means that they are not subject to the same commercial constraints
as newspapers are against television. What we are asking is that
the regulatory framework under the BBC Charter means that there
are proper and effective tests that assess adequately whether
there is going to be adverse commercial impact upon the commercial
sector already operating in their own areas, be it local regional
newspapers, be it their other commercial competitors, and takes
that into account. Because at the moment it really is a fact under
the proposed charter that the BBC decides whether it will have
to sit any test, what the boundaries are, and the BBC can decide
to go ahead. That is even if the market impact test (which the
White Paper proposes and it is a move forward that Ofcom is involved
in that) has shown that there will be an adverse market impact.
What we are asking for is that there is a proper and effective
regulatory system to try and guard against that.
Q248 Mr Sanders: You made a very
good point about competition within the commercial sector but
how many commercial newspaper circulation areas are there in this
country, and can you name them, where there is a competitor newspaper
within a circulation area owned separately? Can you name one area
of the country where it is not the case that one newspaper dominates
and therefore there is no competition?
Ms Rasaiah: Local and regional
newspapers are competing for advertising and for commercial revenue,
not just against other local and regional newspapers, but against
national newspapers, local radio, Internet services, direct mail,
household delivery, all those competitors are actually in their
areas already. Yes, the economics have changed perhaps from the
times when there might have been three or four different newspapers
fighting it out in every town. The economics do not allow that
these days, but they do face fierce competition. There is another
issue, once again to draw the distinction with the BBC. If you
are a local regional newspaper and you want to transfer titles
or acquire another newspaper, the regulatory system means that
there could be an inquiry into whether that should go ahead and
an assessment of even the most local of markets on both the commercial
and competition aspects as well as the public interest/editorial
aspect. In relation to what the BBC is doing that scrutiny does
not exist. If you look at ultra local television services, the
BBC would hope the decision on its pilot in the Midlands would
allow it to roll out those 60 ultra local services throughout
the United Kingdom without any separate assessment of the effect
on the local markets.
Q249 Chairman: Can I quickly ask
the BIPA, you have used some fairly strong language such as "wilfully
unsettling the private sector" and "no limit to the
BBC's voracious ambition". Are you concerned simply that
the regulatory structure is insufficiently strong to control the
BBC in its ambitions in these areas or do you feel that the BBC
should not be going into them at all?
Ms Mills Wade: Obviously they
have got to develop their service to fit the new media landscape
and consumer demand and so on, that is fine, but the way that
the new regulatory system is being set up, it is with one service
licence—and they hold great store by the service licences1
for the whole of the BBC Online offer. So the things that I mentioned
before, such as the teen brand and the mobile delivery areas,
are specific areas in the commercial sector, and we would regard
them as competitive areas between each other and between ourselves.
If that is just all part and parcel of the BBC Online offer, I
personally do not think that is rigorous enough, no.
Q250 Janet Anderson: I wonder if
we could turn to the question of copyright. We have had some evidence
from the music industry about their concern about unauthorised
copying. What is the scale of unauthorised copying or other use
of your digital content? Is it as much of a problem as it is apparently
for the music industry?
Mr Yeates: As far as the publishers
are concerned, piracy and unauthorised use is an issue. Certainly
with the increasing trend to make e-books available, the issues
that are of concern to the music industry are of equal concern
to publishers. At the same time, the publishers are also looking
at using digital rights management as a way of delivering effectively
new services to their customers and therefore feel strongly that
we need to be able to use the new technology in a positive way
so that customers get increased choice over the ways that they
can access material in the future. In terms of public perception
in the traditional market, no, we do not have such a big concern
although in many territories of the world there are really severe
concerns over the copying of books and unauthorised publications,
particularly in territories like India and China.
Q251 Janet Anderson: Are you doing
anything to educate the public about copyright and about infringement
of copyright and so on? It has been suggested to us that this
should perhaps be part of the National Curriculum and that government
should do something. Would you agree with that?
Mr Yeates: I think it is incredibly
important that the DfES are involved in the debates going on.
The Creative Industries Forum put forward some useful recommendations
in terms of a broad educational approach and improving awareness
about IP. There is also some good work going on at the moment
in the Creative Economy programme to look at this issue and how
the issues can be broadened out. Considerable efforts are being
made to engage the CBI so that within companies people are able
to explain to employees why IP is important to their livelihoods,
because very often their jobs rely on the effective enforcement
of IP but people do not realise this. Within the curriculum it
is a difficult topic to make real to people but the Patent Office
have already produced a Think Kit for secondary schools which
has gone down extremely well. Further work is now being done to
look at a similar project within primary schools, and certainly
the publishing community is as keen as the music community to
come up with examples that show young people how they can really
become engaged and earn their living out of professional writing
going forward.
Q252 Janet Anderson: Is there evidence
that all of these measures are having an effect?
Mr Yeates: The research that has
been done into piracy does show that people do now know more than
they did four or five years ago about what is right and what is
wrong in terms of intellectual property use. There are areas where
further work is needed. I think the recommendations that have
come out of the All-Party Internet Group concerning labelling
for copyright protection measures are significant for the industry
and we should take note of that, but I think on the whole there
is a better awareness of the fact that copyright exists and that
it should be observed; people are not quite sure of the parameters
yet.
Q253 Helen Southworth: One of the
amazing things about new media is that it allows direct engagement
between the individual and lots and lots and lots of other individuals.
That is why lots of young people are so incredibly excited by
it and want to use that medium rather than any other methodology.
I wonder what you are actually doing to engage people in understanding
copyright and understanding intellectual property but also understanding
their direct connection with it. What about citizens' journalists,
for example? What are you doing to be interactive? We have been
looking at all the problems of other people and competition, but
why should young people be excited? Why should not older people
or why should not middle-aged people be excited in your parts
of the industry?
Mr Yeates: In order to encourage
people to have trust in the system they do need it to be relevant
to their everyday lives. It is incredibly important if you have
got a musician in the family or you have got a writer in the family
that they also help spread the message. There has perhaps in the
past been a division between the industry side of the business
and the creative side of the business and that has made it more
difficult to get a coherent educational message out to people.
When you do break it down and realise that copyright is really
here as a method for rewarding people who have come up with something
creative, most people are capable of that at one level or another.
The work that has to be done is really to target that and make
sure that everybody at whatever level appreciates that they can
own intellectual property. Copyright does not need to be registered,
but if you come up with something original and it is your own,
you should be proud of it and you should be able to talk about
it in that way as if it something that you really do own like
a piece of furniture.
Q254 Helen Southworth: Something
the local newspaper industry has always done very well at is the
school photograph where everybody buys it so they can send copies
off to their nan or whatever. How do you engage people?
Ms Rasaiah: For local and regional
newspapers, as with national newspapers, inter-activity and engagement
is the great bonus that is given by the new technology. If you
look at the regional and local newspapers' web sites, there is
a tremendous amount of reader interaction, whether it is reader
comments following news items or whether it is the community forums.
If you look at some of the local newspaper titles, they have an
area where they are helping local societies and others set up
their own web sites. From one local title I counted about 100
or so such web sites. There are blogs from readers, from people
who have emerged as natural writers, and there is interaction
whether it is in terms of reader competitions or reader/audience
feedback. There is all that going on and it is a medium that obviously
appeals to the young as well, so there is development encouraged
by local and regional newspapers.
Ms Mills Wade: Plus the campaigning
type issues. Young people obviously are inspired and want to get
involved with either local campaigns or national campaigns of
one sort or another. I think the newspaper sites really lend themselves
to that kind of area as well, building communities of interest.
Ms Rasaiah: It is also the development
of services based on areas that all are interested in, including
the young, from sports, entertainment-, to what newspapers are
doing in terms of SMS message services and all those kinds of
engagements and services.
Mr Yeates: There is one area where
I think we have to work very hard at an educational message and
that is, with that huge opportunity for everybody to become engaged
and create material, there is a difference between the choices
people make about how they want to assert their rights. Not everybody
has to assert their rights and if you want to create something
and give it away for free, then the system should allow you to
do that, but at the same time there has to be a respect for those
people who are employed or who work professionally to rely on
those rights, so we must get the dual messages out there. The
only way one can be successful in that is to build a genuine trust
in the system and a respect for the law, and to enable people
to appreciate that they do not have to enforce their rights, they
have a choice to waive them, but that is a choice and it should
not be a choice taken at the expense of those who wish to assert
their rights.
Q255 Helen Southworth: How are you
actually investing in that? We are talking to each other but it
is people outside who need to hear the message?
Mr Yeates: Yes, and I think it
is a gradual process. It has to be a gradual process but as new
technology evolves and there are new choices of service, perhaps
messages have to be honed to the particular type of service, so
you would not necessarily have the same messages to people about
not using films in an unauthorised way as you would about using
pieces of text. It has to be targeted correctly so that people
can relate to it.
Ms Mills Wade: Andrew and I both
sit on a group which is being brought together by DCMS to really
focus on this area and to share knowledge but also to push certain
projects forward together with the DfES and the support of the
Patent Office.
Ms Rasaiah: Local and regional
newspapers are very involved in `Newspapers in Education' and
that just becomes a natural part of whatever the particular project
is that the local titles are working on with the local schools
and colleges. Also, it is made clear in terms of acceptance of
the contributions from readers and photographs and those sorts
of things that are accepted on to web sites as well. It is a gradual
process.
Ms Mills Wade: At the European
level there is a group looking at media literacy and how the European
Union can add value to the national media literacy campaigns.
One of the areas that they have focused on is intellectual property
rights and how the messages can be part of media literacy generally.
Q256 Mr Evans: For the novice, Andrew,
what is digital rights management?
Mr Yeates: It is one of the areas
where we have to help with the educational messages because there
are two separate sections of it really. There are systems you
can put in place to manage your rights that you can apply to a
piece of software so that you know exactly what you own and how
you are licensing it out, and then there is the technical protection
measures where you can use software to stop people doing things.
The bad press that digital rights management has tended to have
all concentrates on the stopping mechanisms rather than the enabling
mechanisms, and it is very important that the industry reassures
customers that certainly the management aspect of it really is
improving the service and helping them in a positive way. When
you come to the stopping mechanisms, then you need better labelling
and clear advice to consumers over what they are buying. We should
be encouraging them to realise that is not a bad thing. There
are choices and the fact that you choose to acquire a piece of
material for a limited period of time, as opposed to having it
forever, may suit some people, and that is not a bad thing.
Q257 Mr Evans: I heard what you said
to Janet about informing the consumers even to the extent of putting
it on the curriculum, but the fact is even if it is shoved onto
the curriculum people know, if they are buying a CD or DVD and
they are copying it for their mates or burning copies, what they
are doing. The only way you are going to control it is not by
educating them, surely; it is by actually stopping them from doing
it?
Mr Yeates: Not necessarily. I
think there are a lot of areas of copyright, particularly when
we look at the fair dealing aspects of copyright, where there
are flexible areas. A great deal of debate has gone on over whether
there might be a new broad "fair use" exception introduced
under UK legislation for example. Certainly from my perspective
it would be a very dangerous thing to change the law in that respect
because people do push the envelope a bit. Wherever you draw the
line, in the end the reason the law is there is to protect rights
holders where people do things which cause them damage. If it
is very much on the periphery then people will take a decision
over whether it is worth pursuing the person for the damage that
is being caused or not. If we start saying because there is a
grey area somewhere, let us open it wide open and let everybody
do whatever they like, I feel that would be very damaging to the
industry.
Q258 Mr Evans: So the way it is going
to go is increasingly people will be prevented from copying?
Ms Mills Wade: I do not think
so. I think it will develop much more through licensing. Owners
of the copyright works will want to have as wide a distribution
as possible and they are not going to want to stop people doing
things. They are going to find ways to allow them to do the sorts
of things that they want to do in an authorised way. It will be
all bound up in what we call as rights owners licensing, but it
is just a contractual business solution. Also on the other side
of digital rights management, a lot of it happens without you
knowing, it is a machine-to-machine type solution, and that will
happen more and more. It will not be an intrusion or a barrier
to consumers; it will be, as Andrew said, an enabling technology.
So I think that there is a move to come away from this "Stop,
don't do this; don't go there" to finding ways to meet consumer
demand.
Q259 Mr Evans: Is it bigger in the
States than it is here?
Ms Mills Wade: I have no idea.
Mr Yeates: I do not know.
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