Examination of Witnesses (Questions 200-218)
LIEUTENANT GENERAL
ANDREW FIGGURES
CBE AND MR
TIM ROWNTREE
22 MAY 2007
Q200 Willie Rennie: Could you elaborate
on some of the difficulties in extending the life and what the
cost would be?
Mr Rowntree: A lot of it is to
do with ageing aircraft issues and making sure that the systems
have the right sorts of lives and the structural type for modifications.
If you would like more detail on that, I could send you a note.
Chairman: I think we would.
Q201 John Smith: We had the decision
earlier this year on a preferred bidder for the defence training
academy. It is going to be sited at St Athan, where the VC10 is
currently maintained and serviced. There is, as I understand,
a three to five year running period for the construction and occupation
of the academy. Is that going to impact on your ability to extend
the life of the VC10?
Mr Rowntree: The contingency plans
for the extension of the VC10 are being factored into the DTR
planning at St Athan.
Q202 Chairman: Could I ask about
other countries. France is considering the Airbus A330 aircraft
for their refuelling and air transport needs. What is the possibility
of other countries taking part in our FSTA programme? What would
be the advantages of doing such a thing? Are these being explored?
What would be the disadvantages?
Mr Rowntree: We are in dialogue
with other countries, including France. As you say, we certainly
are on track for an A330 solution, and we will need to see where
those discussions go.
Lieutenant General Figgures: We
have discussed these arrangements with the French. Indeed, I am
going to Paris on Thursday and this will be on the agenda—not
with respect to a joint programme but with respect to whether
there are lessons that the French could take from us in terms
of providing this service. They have shown great interest in that
and we have kept closely in touch.
Q203 Chairman: Mr Rowntree, earlier
you said that Eurofighter "has been a painful experience
for all of us". We heard that the delays in the A400M were
caused not by industry but by budgetary and approvals processes
grinding through six countries. Do you think there is an inherent
disadvantage in trying to mount these huge projects across national
boundaries with different national procurement processes and different
timetables in mind and different expectations and goals as to
how these are to be used?
Mr Rowntree: Collaborative programmes
have very significant advantages in terms of sharing cost with
partners, but, as you say, also very significant complications
in the sense of aligning requirements with other nations and making
sure that national approvals and funding processes work at the
same pace as ours do and making sure that national commitments
stay lined up through life. So they are challenging, but for A400M
we have taken the judgment that the advantages are worth taking
on.
Q204 Mr Jenkins: In answer to a previous
question you mentioned that with regard to this PFI we had value
for money.
Mr Rowntree: Yes.
Q205 Mr Jenkins: Since we offset
the risk, I understand totally the argument, because I know there
are three stages to a decent PFI: the funding, the building and
the maintenance afterwards. I presume you are doing it in three
sections. If you are doing it in three sections and getting value
for money, you have obviously done all the figures.
Mr Rowntree: Yes.
Q206 Mr Jenkins: Could you supply
us with a note of what the PFI is going to cost us over that time
and what the calculated figure would have cost us anyway over
that time. We will therefore we have a chance to establish how
much we are paying for the risk. If you could let the Committee
have that, we would be very grateful.
Mr Rowntree: The cost of the PFI
is commercially sensitive. Let me take that away and I will take
advice on what is releasable to the Committee.
Mr Jenkins: Thank you very much.
Chairman: That is a helpful answer.
Q207 Mr Crausby: Turning to the C-17
transport aircraft, can you update us on how the procurement of
the five C-17s is progressing? Will the fifth C-17 be in service
in May 2008?
Mr Rowntree: May 2008 is the declared
in-service date for the fifth aircraft. The aircraft is in production
now and it is going satisfactorily. It leaves the production line
next February and then it goes through some further upgrade work
to make sure it is at the right configuration to be delivered
to us. So it is on track and we expect it to be delivered by May
next year as planned. The other four, of course, are already in
use, so that is a financial exercise in buying out the lease.
The funding is in the budget, the contracts are placed and, again,
that process of buying those four aircraft is well advanced and
proceeding to plan.
Q208 Mr Crausby: We are advised that
the four C-17s currently in use and being leased are performing
well. Are there plans to procure any further C-17s in addition
to the five that have already been procured?
Lieutenant General Figgures: I
am looking at all these options as part of this constant review
of how we deal with the risk to the strategic air bridge, so I
am in the process of producing advice for ministers. In due course
they will decide and all this will become apparent. That does
not say we are going to buy x, y or z but, if I
could ask for your understanding in this, I cannot constrain them
in any way within the propositions being put forward to them.
Q209 Mr Jenkin: This would seem to
be, I hope, going to reflect the fact that, contrary to the SDR
assumption that we do one major operation and one smaller operation
alongside, we must be capable of doing two large operations concurrently
quite a long way away. Would you agree with that and that it is
something we have to factor into consideration?
Lieutenant General Figgures: The
planning assumptions are currently subject to a piece of work
interim guidance. It is a fine decision: Do you plan for the future
in the light of what is happening today or do you plan for the
future in the light of what you anticipate happening tomorrow?
Has the world changed since the strategic defence review? Yes,
it has. Has the Ministry of Defence changed its approach? Yes,
it has, with the new chapter and the last Defence White Paper.
So we have adjusted capabilities required to meet the new threats
and, indeed, we will continue to do so.
Q210 Mr Holloway: Is there an issue
of trust or competence on either side between the MoD and Boeing
after the debacle with these warehouse Chinooks?
Mr Rowntree: Certainly we keep
a very close dialogue with Boeing. Boeing understand that these
are difficult, complicated decisions for us and of course Boeing
are alongside us in taking those decisions forward from where
we reached. They are happy to inform our work on the recovery
of these aircraft and the options that we have.
Q211 Mr Holloway: Do you mean the
Chinooks?
Mr Rowntree: Yes.
Q212 Mr Holloway: I know we are not
talking about that, but it is relevant to the C-17 programme.
Why is that not moving rather more quickly then?
Mr Rowntree: It is moving pretty
quickly. Work is in hand.
Q213 Mr Holloway: How long have they
been sitting in the warehouse for?
Mr Rowntree: It is moving quickly
now. I would prefer not to go over that ground because I think
you have dug into it well and truly in the past, but the minister
has made the decision: we are going to turn these helicopters
into support helicopters.
Q214 Mr Holloway: The question really
is about trust and competence on either side. Is there an issue
between you and Boeing in terms of either our competence or our
trust in them or vice versa?
Mr Rowntree: Boeing understand
that our key priority is support operations and they are very
happy to work alongside us to turn these aircraft back into support
helicopters and back into use as quickly as possible.
Q215 Mr Crausby: In the event of
further delays in A400M, is there scope within the equipment programme
to purchase more C-17s? At what point would we have to make that
decision? If Boeing have closed the production line, surely that
decision would have to be a pretty quick one, would it not?
Mr Rowntree: If I go back to my
previous point—
Q216 Mr Crausby: I am trying to ask
it in a different way.
Mr Rowntree: Even I recognised
that. We are back to looking at the demand, the supply, timeframes,
money and so on. All that will be wrapped into the advice which
I shall put to ministers.
Q217 Mr Crausby: We can expect a
fairly early decision on that then, can we not? Because, as I
said, if the production line is closing, we should soon know.
Mr Rowntree: I am sure the ministers
will make a decision.
Q218 Mr Crausby: Do you anticipate
any problems on spare parts for the C-17s?
Mr Rowntree: No. We are part of
a global fleet of some 180 or so C-17s. One of the benefits of
joining a global fleet as big as the C-17 fleet, with such a big,
powerful customer for it as the US, is that there is an economy
of scale and a surety of spare parts into the future. As you have
seen from the figures, I am sure, the delivery of support to our
C-17 has been extremely good to date.
Chairman: Thank you very much, gentlemen.
We are most grateful to you for coming to give evidence. It has
been most helpful. We now move on to representatives for Airbus.
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