Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60-79)
MR BILL
JEFFREY CB AND
MR TREVOR
WOOLLEY
24 OCTOBER 2006
Q60 Mr Borrow: The Prime Minister
mentioned the creation of a special military ward at Selly Oak
some weeks ago. Do you have a timetable for that development,
or can you not be more precise about it?
Mr Jeffrey: Before the end of
the year.
Q61 Chairman: How does that differ
from what already happens?
Mr Jeffrey: It will have a greater
military component and military management.
Q62 Chairman: It varies in degree
rather than in concept?
Mr Jeffrey: The concept is not
an exclusively military one; it is one in which the facilities
would be militarily managed with a much heavier concentration
of our own people than has been the case in the past.
Q63 Robert Key: How is that being
achieved? Is it being done through a memorandum of association
between the Ministry of Defence and the trust, which is the usual
vehicle for the MDHU arrangement over the years? Perhaps it is
unfair to ask you that. Would you write to us and tell us how
it is being achieved at Selly Oak?
Mr Jeffrey: I certainly will write
if what I am about to say turns out not to be true, if I may put
it that way.[7]
I do not know whether or not there is a memorandum of association.
If there is I will certainly write to say so. What I do know is
that throughout this there has been very close contact between
the Ministry of Defence under the Deputy Chief of the Defence
Staff responsible for health matters and the trust management
to talk openly about the best way to deal with this. We have not
by any means found the management of the NHS trust to be unresponsive
to this. The trust is as keen as we are to get this right.
Q64 Mr Borrow: I should like to touch
briefly on the question of Reservists needing medical treatment
on their return. There have been suggestions that Reservists have
not received the sort of medical support and care that they need.
What is your view on that? How confident are you that we are treating
returning Reservists with medical needs in a proper manner?
Mr Jeffrey: I visited the main
Reserve centre a month or so ago and talked to staff there about
what is being done. I think it is better than it was. There is
definitely an issue about how best to address the situation in
which the Reservist returns to normal life, as it were, and sometimes
continues to attend regular NHS facilities. We then need to be
sure that we do not lose touch. But my strong sense is that there
has been some improvement in that area.
Q65 Mr Borrow: In May there was an
announcement of improved mental health care for Reservists. Is
that now in place; if so, what impact is that having?
Mr Jeffrey: It has now been implemented.
I did not come briefed to give you a very detailed account of
the impact. I am not sure that I could do so, and perhaps it is
another matter on which I should write to the Committee.
Mr Borrow: That would be helpful.[8]
Q66 Linda Gilroy: Staying with the medical
services, I think it has been acknowledged that it is affected
by significant recruitment and retention problems. What impact
is that having on military operations in Afghanistan and Iraq
and the care and rehabilitation of injured soldiers returning
from operations?
Mr Jeffrey: To date, all of the
operational requirements placed on the Defence Medical Service
have been met in theatre, so I do not believe there is any lack
of appropriate support on deployment. Within the total assessed
requirement for medical staff we undoubtedly have shortages, especially
in key areas such as A&E and anaesthetics and some of the
consultant and nursing specialties. The last figure I have is
that we assessed our total requirement for defence medical services
at 7,200 and our trained strength in April was 6,610 which is
more than a little short but over 100 up on a year earlier. We
have 1,000 more in training or in reserve. We are trying to make
up the shortfall, but the broad picture is that it is not impacting
adversely on our ability to staff medical facilities at the front
line.
Q67 Linda Gilroy: It still sounds
to me like a considerable shortfall. We were told in response
to our questions last year that a number of matters were being
done to address the situation. Can you tell us those things that
have a positive impact now that you have established the right
direction of travel? Can you tell us whether pay will be part
of the package to recruit and retain particularly those personnel
you have mentioned where shortages exist?
Mr Jeffrey: We have certainly
been targeting our recruitment efforts in the areas where we have
the greatest shortages. As to pay, at our prompting and without
any resistance on its part the Armed Forces Pay Review Body endorsed
a special consolidated payment for Defence Medical Service medical
and dental officers of £6,500 which will be payable from
1 November and is intended to address any disparity with their
counterparts in the NHS. I think that pay is relevant. As we look
forward certainly in our report to the AFPRB for next years we
will be drawing attention to the shortfall in these areas and
the kinds of targeted measures that could help us to address it.
Q68 Linda Gilroy: Do you say that
that is being implemented? There was a Written Answer on 9 October
that the Government wanted carefully to consider the Armed Forces
Pay Review Board report. Has it now been accepted?
Mr Jeffrey: I am briefed to the
effect that the payment of £6,500 will come into play at
the beginning of next month.
Q69 Linda Gilroy: So, the answer
is yes?
Mr Jeffrey: Yes.
Q70 Mr Crausby: All the Services
missed the target for UK ethnic minority intake in 2005-06, but
the RAF and Royal Navy did particularly badly despite the fact
that the MoD said that it would take action in the past year.
Why have the actions that you implemented not improved the position,
and what further action is being taken to address this problem
particularly in the case of the RAF and Royal Navy?
Mr Jeffrey: We certainly acknowledge
that we have not been nearly successful enough in this area. I
am persuaded that it is not for want of trying. We had a discussion,
as it happens, in the Defence Management Board about this last
week with the Deputy Chief of the Defence Staff on the personnel
side and my own civilian personnel director present. The Army
is managing to achieve its recruitment targets for black and minority
ethnic recruits in particular; the Navy and Air Force are well
short. It is not for want of trying. We need to think quite hard
about how we impact on that part of the population and in particular
those among them who have the kind of technical and other skills
that the Navy and Air Force need. Whether it is to do with perceptions
about the Armed Forces being a good organisation to join I do
not know, but it is something that is exercising the chiefs and
myself and we are determined to keep working on it.
Q71 Mr Crausby: It seems odd that
members of the ethnic minorities think that the Army is a good
thing to join but not the Navy and Royal Air Force. I would have
thought that the rest of the population might see that almost
in reverse. Is it not unusual that the Royal Navy and RAF should
struggle in that way? Does it come from the desire of ethnic minorities
to join or from within the Services themselves?
Mr Jeffrey: I do not believe that
it comes from within the Services. I have talked about this to
the Chiefs of the Naval Staff and Air Staff and both are personally
very committed to achieving a change in the composition of their
Services. I think that we just need to look hard again at recruitment
materials, how well targeted they are and whether our offer, in
the language of the private sector, is the right one for these
purposes.
Q72 Mr Crausby: I turn to civilian
personnel. The performance in that area in relation to diversity
targets was more mixed. What further action could the MoD take
to improve its performance in this area? Does the MoD believe
that the relocation of staff as a result of the Lyons review is
likely to help or hinder the performance?
Mr Jeffrey: On the civilian side
I would break it down between recruitment and advancement once
one is in. Our recruitment rates for both women and black and
minority ethnic people are reasonably good. My big challenge,
which I faced elsewhere in the Civil Service—as diversity
champion for the whole of the Service I am very keen that we should
address it—is to bring through into senior positions those
women and BME people who are in more junior positions. We start
from a very low base because the MoD has traditionally, in comparison
with other government departments in which I have served, been
a very white male department for all sorts of historical reasons.
We have also been shrinking, so to get the movement that I certainly
want to achieve is not straightforward, but we are working on
it. One quite good sign is that as of July of this year just over
46% of our fast stream intake are women and 11.4% are Black and
Minority Ethnic. In both cases that is an increase on the previous
12 months. Coming along among the younger capable people who ought
to be able to advance to more senior positions within the department
is a more representative group. It is undoubtedly the case that
the sheer make-up of the population is such that we are likely
to recruit more black and minority ethnic staff in London than
in most other parts of the country.
Q73 Mr Lancaster: I am slightly concerned.
Before we pat ourselves on the back about these achievements,
one matter that struck me recently was how many foreign and Commonwealth
soldiers are serving in the Army at the moment, and very welcome
they are too. Presumably, these figures include Fijians and soldiers
recruited in the Caribbean. If we take away the Commonwealth soldiers
from these figures the number of British nationals as a percentage
will be significantly lower?
Mr Jeffrey: That is a fair point,
and I certainly did not want to sound self-congratulatory about
the Army.
Q74 Mr Lancaster: I did not mean
that. I was just struck by how many Commonwealth soldiers serve
in the Army at the moment. Can you supply the figures minus the
Commonwealth and foreign soldiers?
Mr Jeffrey: Not today, but we
can certainly try to do so. As I have gone around the place I
have been struck, for example, by the number of Fijians we have
in the Army. We shall try to get that figure. [9]
Q75 John Smith: It is my view that there
is something seriously wrong with the recruitment policies in
the three Services regarding ethnic minorities. It may not be
through want of trying, but quite clearly we are not trying in
the right way. Far from achieving good results in the civilian
MoD where 10 or 11% is roughly a reflection of the ethnic mix
of the population in general, in my opinion we do appallingly
with the incredibly modest targets in our three Services which
do not reflect the composition of ethnic minorities in the population
as a whole. One would reasonably expect to see a better result
in the uniformed disciplined services than in the civilian service.
If one takes other countries like the USA and Canada which do
adopt proactive policies in recruitment, one finds invariably
a higher proportion. In the Army of the United States of America
one finds three times the proportion of recruits from ethnic minority
groups than is reflected in the US population as a whole. Clearly,
we are not getting this one right. Given our historical background
and our links with the Commonwealth countries and everything else,
I think it is a shame that we are not achieving better within
the three Services. If we are trying hard then we are doing something
seriously wrong and need to go back to the drawing board and look
at it again. It is an appalling situation.
Mr Jeffrey: I believe that we
are trying hard. If you look again at the report we are discussing
this morning, we see from paragraph 284 that the Army topped the
public sector performers list for the sixth successive year in
Race for Opportunity's annual benchmarking report on race in the
workplace. The Navy and RAF are in the top 10. The senior leadership
is trying to improve the situation, but it is true that we are
not yet cracking it. We need to look hard at the reasons for that,
for example whether they are to do with the way we present ourselves
and to what extent they are to do with the perception of the Armed
Forces within the ethnic minority communities.
Q76 Mr Hamilton: One of the things
that strikes me is that the Services in general and the police
have similar problems. Do you have any dialogue with the police
forces throughout the UK to find out how they overcome the problem?
Mr Jeffrey: I believe that there
is such dialogue. I know from previous experience that the police
have tried to tackle this issue for a very long time and in some
parts of the country they have had significant success.
Q77 Chairman: Permanent Secretary,
when you come before us next year can you do more than say that
this is a real problem and we need to look harder at it, please?
Next year we will certainly want some answers in terms of the
specific steps you have taken as a result of the hearing today.
I thought that your answers on this matter were disappointing.
Mr Jeffrey: I will certainly do
so. I take strength from the fact that the Committee is as concerned
about this as it is, because within the organisation this is something
that I feel we must focus upon very hard.
Q78 Mr Crausby: Could you break that
down between ethnic minority communities? I do not accept that
there is just one ethnic minority community. One is concerned
also with Muslims and others.
Mr Jeffrey: We can certainly break
down those whom we do recruit in that fashion.[10]
I entirely agree that there are likely to be differences in attitude
and interest in joining the Armed Forces among the different communities.
One example that I know perplexes my service colleagues is our
relative lack of success in recruiting people from the Sikh community
which has a very strong military tradition. We do not succeed
in getting nearly as many of them as we would wish.
Q79 Robert Key: You are right that we
had Sikh regiments in the British and Indian Armies. Ten years
ago or more the predecessor Defence Committee inquired into it
and asked the Sikh community why there was so little recruitment.
The answer was because nobody had asked them. It was not that
there was any reason why they would not seek opportunities in
the Armed Forces but no effort was being made to ask their young
people. If so, I think that is a great loss to the British forces.
I very much hope that whoever is responsible for this error will
be able to tell us that they have a Sikh recruitment programme.
Mr Jeffrey: I certainly believe
there is more outreach, in the jargon, than there was at the time
you describe, but I confess that it is not yet yielding results.
7 See Ev 32, para 6. Back
8
See Ev 32, para 7. Back
9
See Ev 36. Back
10
See Ev 35. Back
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