Examination of Witnesses (Questions 820-839)
JIM KNIGHT
MP AND PARMJIT
DHANDA MP
24 JANUARY 2007
Q820 Helen Jones: What is the Department's
view of what educational transformation means? Is it about teaching
and learning, or is it about having lots of different types of
schools: faith schools, Trusts, Academies, or whatever. What is
it?
Jim Knight: It is fundamentally
about teaching and learning and a focus on standards. There is
a role for diversity and choice in terms of accountability and
ensuring that we do not have complacency in the system, but fundamentally
it is about the development of teaching and learning, the personalisation.
We are working through our response to Christine Gilbert's review
on teaching and learning for 2020, but one of the interesting
aspects to that is the notion of learners learning from each other
more, of teachers facilitating learning and teaching people how
to learn, the skills to learn, as much as teaching the knowledge
itself. That sort of development is, I think, at the core of it
alongside giving learners choice over curriculum, choice over
qualifications, which is part of the 14-19 changes, for example.
Helen Jones: I am very pleased to hear
you say that, but does that then mean if there is local consultation—for
instance, Knowsley, who we were very impressed with, have a very
clear vision of where they want to go, they have carried out a
lot of consultation locally, but they told us they were then pressurised
by the Department to have an Academy in their plans, which did
not fit the structure that they wanted and that they had consulted
on locally. Are you saying to this Committee that that should
not happen, or are local authorities going to be pressed to have
an Academy as they go through a BSF programme whether the local
people want one or not?
Q821 Chairman: That rather takes
us back to the centralism and localism point, does it not?
Jim Knight: Part of the strategy
for change discussion will include what the structures will look
like, what diversity of choices there will be. If you are in an
authority like Knowsley that has historic low levels of performance
and low levels of standards and still remains one of the poorest
performing authorities in terms of both value added and result—
Q822 Helen Jones: It is fascinating.
Jim Knight: Again, I am looking
forward to meeting Knowsley and having a discussion with them
tomorrow about continuing that improvement in standards, which
they should be proud of but they should not be complacent about.
We believe that structures can play a role in forming standards.
It was fundamental to the Act that was passed last year and the
debate that we were all a part of around that, and I do not know
that we need to re-rehearse that debate.
Q823 Helen Jones: But there were
also assurances given that these would not be forced on local
authorities?
Jim Knight: Yes. In Knowsley's
case, they were going to have an Academy. They are now not going
to have an Academy. They are proposing moving from 11 to seven.
The previous agreement was eight, which included an Academy. We
will be discussing tomorrow their proposals for seven and whether
or not we exempt them from competition, but I am not going to
prejudge that discussion now.
Q824 Helen Jones: I am still not
sure what the answer is, Minister. Was it that authorities must
have an Academy or they need not have one if they have other plans
and there is no local pressure for one?
Jim Knight: By implication, what
I am saying in respect of Knowsley is that I am not saying that
you got have to have an Academy or you have got to have a trust
school or you have got to have whatever else. What I am saying
is that you have got to demonstrate that you will see a radical
improvement of standards.
Q825 Chairman: Helen is asking you
also the general principle. Is it the general principle that under
the BSF programme, when you are dealing with the local authority,
you use that opportunity to press them to have an Academy?
Jim Knight: No, we would not dogmatically
press them to have an Academy. We would say, have you looked properly
at the standards that your school is producing? Have you looked
properly at how you are going to configure schools post-BSF to
ensure that standards continue to rise, and have you looked at
all of the options to achieve that? If you have an historic record
of underperformance by managing and delivering your own schools
as an authority's community schools, then we would probably challenge
them to use some of the other forms that we know are working.
Academies will be one of them which we know are producing excellent
improvements in results, trust schools, equally, maybe others,
but it is not a question of saying every authority must have an
Academy, it is a question of saying every authority must be driving
forward standards for their young people.
Q826 Helen Jones: If an authority
like mine, where over 97% of parents get their first choice of
secondary school, submitted a BSF plan that did not have Academies
in it—I am not particularly referring to my own, there are
lots of them—where the schools, even those in challenging
circumstances, are improving schools, would your officials still
go to them and say, "Have you thought of having an Academy?",
because what we are getting from local authorities is that there
is lots of pressure from your Department to have an Academy as
part of BSF even when the authority has carefully consulted and
worked out a plan to tackle the problems it faces?
Jim Knight: We would look at the
authority, be it Warrington or elsewhere, look at the trend in
standards for the schools and ensure that the vision is going
to improve standards, is going to continue to challenge schools
to do better, and if an Academy was going to be part of the solution,
if we thought that the local authority was complacent about that
or dogmatic in the opposite direction, then we may well challenge
them.
Q827 Helen Jones: My question is
a bit more specific. Are you going to say that to local authorities
even when there is no demand locally for that?
Jim Knight: We may do if the standards
still were not good enough. Just because there is no demand for
an Academy, there might even be no demand in improvement, that
does not necessarily mean that improvement should not happen.
It might mean that there is a lack of ambition in that community
or a lack of aspiration in that community, but that still might
be something that the authority should address.
Q828 Chairman: Parmjit, you are not
catching my eye very well.
Mr Dhanda: I was going to give
my colleague an opportunity to have a sip of water actually. Obviously,
Jim leads on capital and BSF and that has been the broad remit
of the questions so far, but, Helen, you did mention at the very
outset a vision process of schools and I think vision process
and sustainability very much go hand in hand in terms of the work
that we are trying to do in the Department at the moment. I thought
I would mention within that context some of the work that obviously
I am involved in around the classroom and sustainability. We launched
the Sustainable Schools Consultation Process last May. I believe
it was actually the first government carbon neutral consultation
document that we had had, and within that context—I think
you mentioned build—big capital projects and obviously BSF
are very important, but amongst the eight doorways within that
consultation process buildings and grounds, certainly at a local
level, are a very important element. I thought it would be worth
mentioning, something that the Department has produced is a self-evaluation
tool for schools in terms of how they ensure that sustainability
as a key part of that. You also mentioned, Helen, staff training
and the learning process. I think sustainability is important
there as well in terms of the context of what we have been doing
in terms of this consultation, and we will be producing an action
plan in the coming weeks which will refer again to the TDA and
the National College of School Leadership and will discuss just
how we can do that within a sustainability context and those doorways
which are very important in the classroom. That is slightly separate
to what we have been talking about in terms of new-build, BSF
and capital build, I just thought we ought to get that on the
record and allow Jim to have a glass of water.
Q829 Mr Marsden: Minister, just to
pursue these issues of flexibility, you have already referred
to the fact that you think the planning process needs to have
flexibility. You referred specifically to 14-19 Diplomas as having
an impact on that and you also mentioned the 2020 Vision Report.
I wonder how you think specifically the 2020 Vision Report is
going to affect what your Department changes about its recommendations
and thoughts on design?
Jim Knight: I think, principally,
it would be around ensuring that we have flexible learning spaces
and ensuring that we are—. It is already clear, and has
always been clear, that ICT should be properly integrated into
the programme, but I am currently discussing with Becta and looking
to bring them into the process more completely so that we can
ensure that we are properly anticipating the future technology
need and building that into the design at a stronger level. I
have one or two concerns. They are not major concerns, and it
is very difficult with technology to anticipate where it is going
to go, but there are issues around ICT and sustainability, there
are issues also around ICT and future proofing and we have got
to make sure that we get that right.
Q830 Mr Marsden: I am very pleased
to hear that. Presumably implicit in that is the suggestion that
the Department has not been doing enough of it already?
Jim Knight: It is just the nature
of technology and the way it changes and the various directions
in which that industry goes. I have been having quite a few discussions
over the last couple of months, and I will also, next month, be
going to visit a number of the leading technology companies in
the United States to try and properly anticipate where we are
going. It is actually more about that side of things, about making
sure that we can properly understand where things might go and
predict those and offer some vision of that to schools than it
is about criticism of where we have been today.
Mr Dhanda: I think it is a very
personal question, because as we see a greater roll-out of technology
and more computers, we do have the difficulty of dealing with
emissions and issues around technology. It is very natural, but
I think it is quite heartening, some of the advances and changes,
and you will have seen it on your journeys around schools, the
more sustainable ones in particular, where we are doing work around
intelligent buildings where the lights switch-off as you walk
out of a room, but also specifically in this area around ICT computers
and thin client devices, where there is a great deal of work that
can be done. We can ensure that battery lives for these machines
last a whole day without a need for charging. I think Jim is probably
more of a technical expert on this than I am, but there are ways
of ensuring that with these thin client devices that power is
used up not by a terminal but by the server. I think we need to
look into this, and I think there are some very exciting opportunities
out there around that.
Q831 Mr Marsden: The technical things,
as you refer to them, Parmjit, are something that will always
challenge all of us, some of us perhaps more than others, but
the challenge that faces us in terms of transformation is also
the challenge of usage, is it not, Minister?
Jim Knight: Yes.
Q832 Mr Marsden: One of the things
that we are concerned about, and I hate to keep going back to
Knowsley, but Knowsley seemed to have a very clear idea of how
their future buildings would serve the whole community?
Jim Knight: Yes.
Q833 Mr Marsden: We do not see that,
I think, in all of the BSF bids so far. How are you going to ensure,
without being Stalinist, state'ist or top-down, as my colleague
Douglas Carswell might put it, that that sort of broader community
vision is communicated to local authorities and is taken on board
by your own officials in assessing these bids?
Jim Knight: We quoted and held
up Knowsley as an example of best practice in the White Paper,
I think, and I regularly refer people to Knowsley as an authority
that has been particularly imaginative, particularly creative
and how much we welcome that level of creativity, and so, at a
personal level, I am trying to do my bit and as a Department we
are not shy in using that example; but, again, it is the same
sort of issue that we have been talking about again and again
in terms of best practice and how we spread that and the various
agencies that are involved in BSF and making sure that they are
involved. In particular, I am keen to get Becta more firmly integrated
into this as part of the sharing of best practice in terms of
technology.
Q834 Mr Marsden: Minister, I understand
that, and the examples that you gave earlier of the NCSL involvement,
and you mentioned the Sorrell Foundation, and all the rest of
it, those are things that we would share and agree with but the
reality is that good or innovative local authorities and schools
will take those things forward anyway. What I am concerned about
is what template you have in the Department for encouraging the
spread of that best practice. Can I raise one very specific issue
with you? My colleague, Helen Jones, has already talked about
the way in which Academies fit into BSF, but I want to ask you
about how you see BSF affecting sixth form colleges and the FE
sector. I have been talking to a number of FE principles who are
concerned, not, incidentally, in the Knowsley case, but who are
concerned that BSF may go ahead in their areas and these great
plans for community involvement across the age ranges and all
the of rest of it, and yet there is not a structural way of involving
them, or they do not think so, in the local authority's plans.
Is that a concern that you share?
Jim Knight: It is a concern that
I have had, because it stands to reason that we have an ambitious
14-19 programme that I believe we will be talking about next week
and yet we have structures that begin and end at 16. Clearly it
must be a concern to ensure that that runs smoothly together.
That is why I am pleased that, as part of the changes that we
have made in the process, with the introduction of the Strategy
for Change, we have a requirement that we look at very closely,
that the local authority is properly consulting with the Learning
and Skills Council locally to ensure that there is proper alignment
between their educational vision for schools and the post-16 offer
and the delivery of the 14-19 agenda. Similarly, the LSC have
a requirement that, when they put capital projects up to their
board, they show what consultation they have had with the local
authority to ensure that at their end it is properly integrated;
and when we look at the gateways and the use of the 40 million
capital fund for the delivery of the diploma gateways, certainly
we will be looking to ensure that there is proper integration
with BSF.
Q835 Mr Marsden: In terms of your
own Department, what are you doing to make sure that people who
cover the FE sector are liaising closely and properly with the
officials who are overseeing BSF?
Jim Knight: The 14-19 reforms
and agenda are critical to that and bring the two directorates
together. Coles, the official who is responsible for the 14-19
curriculum changes and the diplomas and so on, sits within the
FE directorate, Stephen Marston's directorate, but he is working
very closely with the schools directorate, and I am the lead minister
on 14-19, I spend most of my time working with officials in schools,
so I think we have got a reasonable structural set-up which says
that the lead official is coming from the FE, HE directorate,
the lead minister is coming from the schools directorate, and
that will, I hope, ensure that we have got good integration across
the Department.
Q836 Mr Marsden: A final point. You
have talked, Minister, about the problems of tightness in inner
city areas. One of the problems at the moment within your own
frameworks of costing is that there is very little allowance made
for increased costs of rebuilding on inner city or inner town
sites and, as we generate more and more towns and cities, ironically
land value goes up and that is going to be a problem. Is that
something you can look at in the context of BSF?
Jim Knight: It is something that
we have been looking at with the Academies that are also in those
sorts of areas.
Q837 Mr Marsden: I mention it, in
particular, for obvious reasons, because I have had two examples
in my own constituency.
Jim Knight: Yes, that is something
we can look at. It is something that I will reflect on and discuss
with officials and, if it is useful for me to send you a note
on the outcome of that discussion, then I can hopefully do so.
[3]
Chairman: Perhaps you ought to be talking
to Tesco; they seem to own half of England!
Q838 Fiona Mactaggart: Minister,
do you remain committed to the approach of integrating the ICT
funding on contracts within the LEP? We have heard from some ICT
providers that this approach ties them into the wider construction
process and consortium and therefore limits innovation?
Jim Knight: Yes, when I was at
the BETT fair there were some ICT companies who made similar points
to me about their worries around how they are being integrated.
To some extent we will improve that through practice and through
building up trust between the various partners, but I think there
is gain in letting the ICT contracts as long-term managed services,
because, as always with these long-term contracts, what you are
dealing with is risk and you are placing risk, quite deliberately,
outside the public sector. Again, by having long-term ICT contracts
you are placing the risk around technological change elsewhere,
which is a gain but in some ways it is the most difficult aspect
of the integration just because predicting where technology will
be in 25 years time is kind of a challenge.
Q839 Fiona Mactaggart: You have a
fantastic record on that. I also wanted to ask you about regeneration.
I was struck in the evidence from the Department that, in the
part of the evidence about the school being at the heart of the
community, there was a vision of schools offering stuff to the
community rather than engaging the wider community in creating
it. In fact, it was only in the Early Years section and
Every Child Matters section that there was a reference
to the kind of participation of other forces within the community
in developing things. I am concerned that BSF, which is a fantastic
investment in some of the most deprived communities in the country,
is not being conceived as part of a regeneration process which
in the process involves the whole community. Why is it not and
what are you doing about it?
Jim Knight: What we would want
to achieve, by announcing well in advance which authorities are
in which waves, by having quite significant design periods as
part of the process, is the ability for local authorities, who,
as we have discussed with Douglas, have the key role locally in
ensuring that this strategically works, that they are using their
local strategic partnerships to ensure that we have got any gains
that we can make by linking through with other services, and at
a school level obviously we have got the development of extended
schools with every school being an extended school by 2010, which
is very much about them engaging externally with their community
and ensuring that the gains we make with BSF, alongside everything
else we are doing schools, is something that the community can
have access to, particularly parents but also the wider community
as well. Again, in terms, we have got the development of the 14-19
curriculum and the engagement with employers locally that we will
need to see as part of that, and the development of trust schools
which, by definition, are looking for external partners in a locality
to make the whole culture of the school much more outward looking
and less inwardly focused.
Chairman: Can ask everyone to be very
fast, because we are going to squeeze bullying out of today's
session if we are not very careful.
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