Examination of Witnesses (Questions 120-139)
MR CHRIS
WALLER, MS
BERNADETTE JOSLIN,
MR MICK
WATERS AND
MR TONY
BRESLIN
26 APRIL 2006
Q120 Helen Jones: Do you think that
teaching staff as a whole have enough knowledge of the democratic
process themselves to pass it on to young people? One of my colleagues
is laughing. We all know. People write to you, this is the staff,
and say, "As you are the councillor for my ward"—and
this is nothing to do with party politics, this is not understanding
the system—and if they do not, how can we make sure that
they do?
Mr Breslin: At risk of alienating
the entire community that we substantially work with, namely teachers,
there is an issue about that. This is an issue about political
literacy across the board, and that is why it is really important
that we get initial teacher training right and we get continuing
professional development right and we give teachers the confidence
to deal with those issues. Teaching about the law and politics
has a controversy and has a difficulty that is simply not there
when you are teaching many other subjects in that sense, and we
have to recognise that and we have to have a much more tightly
nationally co-ordinated approach to ensure that teachers in all
schools have that, that heads recognise those issues. Yes, it
is part of our frustration that sometimes we speak insufficiently
and work insufficiently with the people who perhaps might benefit
most from the kind of input that a good professional can give.
Chairman: This leads on really to initial
and in-service training, so let us drill down that area.
Q121 Mr Chaytor: Do all schools now
have a trained citizenship co-ordinator?
Mr Breslin: They do not. They
are now obliged to all have a co-ordinator. Sometimes that individual—
Q122 Mr Chaytor: Do they all have
a co-ordinator?
Mr Breslin: I would say they do
all have a co-ordinator but that co-ordinator in some schools
would have seven other responsibilities.
Q123 Mr Chaytor: Every secondary
and every primary school has a citizenship co-ordinator?
Mr Breslin: Every secondary?
Q124 Mr Chaytor: Every secondary.
Mr Breslin: Every secondary. Indeed,
one would expect to find a joint co-ordinator for PSHE and citizenship
in every primary—
Q125 Mr Chaytor: Of those co-ordinators
in secondary schools, what proportion will have had some kind
of training, either ITT or CPD?
Mr Breslin: I do not have precise
figures on that. In a sense it is very hard data to get, but our
anecdotal experience is that, while some co-ordinators in some
areas have come from particular subject backgrounds, they have
got the expertise or perhaps they are one of the recently qualified
PGCE citizenship teachers, but very many of them have not had
sufficient access or sometimes any access to training and development.
That is why we welcomed the roll-out of the National Certificate
for CPD in citizenship education because that, we hope, will begin
to address this, but there is a massive deficit there and it would
be wrong to say otherwise and wrong to criticise those co-ordinators
in the light of that lack of training.
Q126 Mr Chaytor: Of those co-ordinators
in secondary schools how many are dedicated citizenship co-ordinators
as against people who have got three or four other jobs?
Mr Breslin: I think most people
in schools now have two or three jobs. The problem sometimes with
citizenship co-ordinators is that they have six or seven.
Q127 Mr Chaytor: Are you saying that
there are no schools that will have a citizenship co-ordinator
who only deals with citizenship?
Mr Breslin: No, there are some
schools that have got this fully, that are fully on board and
have a dedicated team of teachers, led by a co-ordinator. There
is a kind of gold star model here, but it is in an insufficient
range of schools.
Q128 Mr Chaytor: I think Chris has
got an interest in this as well. Could I put to you Chris, what
is the scale of the challenge of getting to the position where,
by 2010, all schools have got trained citizenship co-ordinators?
What kind of programme would be needed? Maybe the easiest way
of putting it is what is one of the two or three most crucial
things to ensure that all schools have trained citizenship co-ordinators?
Mr Waller: I would agree with
everything that Tony said. I think the big difference now is that
there is more enthusiasm amongst those who are advocates for citizenship
teaching in school and, therefore, they are looking towards a
time, let us say 2010, where there will be a trained teacher in
every single school. This has been a very good year for citizenship.
There have been two really significant developments. One is the
CPD handbook, which has been rolled out this term and next term.
Q129 Mr Chaytor: This is what we
have here: Making Sense of Citizenship?
Mr Waller: Yes. Because for the
first time it collects a view point as to how citizenship might
evolve and is written by teachers, with teachers, for teachers
and others, in a language that they can access and understand.
That means that the enthusiastic advocates in schools now have
somewhere to turn to help their colleagues, whereas before that
support might have been very patchy. Second, the CPD programme
that will be launched by the DfES in the autumn term has been
received very enthusiastically by both local authorities and by
schools who see this as a legitimisation of the subject but also
as a very serious intent to ensure that teachers are getting the
sorts of quality provision that is necessary to tackle the very
real point that you raised about a complete lack of understanding,
in many respects, of the political process and other aspects of
teaching citizenship as well, which is perfectly understandable
because this is something that they were not required, as it were,
to have an in-depth knowledge of before.
Q130 Mr Chaytor: Can I pursue this
question of the CPD programme. What is it and how many teachers
are going to participate in it?
Mr Waller: Initially 600, followed
by a further 600. We have funding to the tune of, I believe, £300,000.
Q131 Mr Chaytor: Over what period
of time?
Mr Waller: Over two years.
Q132 Mr Chaytor: So, by the end of
2007, or by the end of 2008, 1,200 teachers would have participated?
Mr Waller: One would hope so,
the majority of whom would probably be from the secondary sector.
Q133 Mr Chaytor: A third of secondary
schools will have participated?
Mr Waller: Yes, and possibly those
teachers who have had a minimum number of years teaching as well.
On the back of that, we have also got the PGCE programme as well
for citizenship.
Q134 Mr Chaytor: Before we go on
to the PGCE, what is the relationship between the CPD programme
and the National Certificate course? Are they the same?
Mr Waller: Yes.
Q135 Mr Chaytor: In terms of PGCE—
Mr Waller: Which is also significant
and very important and crucial, but I would maintain that there
are too few teachers, too few trainees getting on to the courses
that are available. I know, for example, that one of the HEI providers
in the south-west of England was allocated 15 places for 2006-07
and had 60 applicants. Each one of those 60 applicants wanted
to train to be a citizenship teacher, but they were turned away.
They are possibly lost to the profession; certainly they are lost
in terms of that training institution to citizenship training
courses; so the demand is there, the interest is there.
Q136 Mr Chaytor: Has there been an
overall reduction in the number of places?
Mr Waller: Indeed.
Q137 Mr Chaytor: How does that compare
with the overall reduction in other subject specialisms?
Mr Waller: I do not know the answer
to that one.
Q138 Mr Chaytor: It is part of a
general reduction in initial teacher training; it is not targeted
at the citizenship?
Mr Breslin: It is part of a general
reduction.
Q139 Chairman: Can Mick Waters help
us with that one?
Mr Waters: No.
Mr Waller: We would maintain that
all this indicates that there is an enthusiasm amongst teachers
to learn how to be better citizenship teachers. Whether they are
starting from square one or whether they are advocates already
within the system, they want help and support. This has been a
good year in terms of the CPD handbook and the roll-out of the
National Certificate, so that is really good news.
| 
