Select Committee on Education and Skills Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 300-319)

MR SIMON GOULDEN, DR MOHAMMED MUKADAM, MR NICK MCKEMEY AND MS OONA STANNARD

22 MAY 2006

  Q300  Mr Marsden: I think that is absolutely fine. I would like to move on to Simon and Mohammed and, by all means, through you, Chairman, touch briefly on this point, if you would like to. In a way I would like to take them a little bit further and, again, perhaps in the context of having specific time in the school day to discuss or to look at these difficult issues. I think both of you mentioned ethics, values and morals on a couple of occasions but the issue is, is it not, that in multi-ethnic and multi-cultural Britain today there are a very striking variety of views on some key issues which inevitably come up. Let me take two or three very specific examples: attitudes towards the position of women in society varying enormously, not just between faith groups but within faith groups; attitudes perhaps towards the centrality of marriage and attitudes towards homosexuality. To what extent are you confident, again to reflect something my colleague David Chaytor said, that within your treatment of citizenship in your schools those sorts of complex issues, on which people inevitably will have very different views, can be taken forward?

  Dr Mukadam: Can I look at it in a slightly different way. If you separate the notion about a good citizen and an active citizen, perhaps we can see. In that sense I think it is important to ring-fence some of those things to create what I believe is an active citizen because you can have a good citizen who can be a very passive citizen. In terms of the debates which you mentioned, specifically about the attitude to women, homosexuality, et cetera, these pose no problems at all for faith schools where they are well-run and have a broader understanding of Islam. Of course Islam has its clear views about homosexuality and those are discussed in schools, but it would be wrong to translate that as homophobic, or whatever you want to call it. Although the Koran is very clear that homosexuality as an act is sinful and so forth, I do not think the Koran teaches that they should go around beating up any homosexuals, so there is a difference. There is room for holding one's own views and to discuss this, and to uphold them. It is equally important to make sure that they respect their fellow human beings and do not go around doing things which are illegal.

  Q301  Mr Marsden: With respect, if I may pick you up on that, it comes back to a word I think you used, Simon Goulden, because you talked about the difference between toleration and respect. Whether it is a debate about women or it is a debate about attitudes towards homosexuality, what many people would argue is what is important in those schools, or in an educational system, is there should be the capability of having a debate, not just about—if I can put it this way—gritted teeth toleration but about respect for other members of society who have a lifestyle or can take an attitude or have a perception of themselves which is different perhaps from a traditional Islamic or indeed any other faith-based view.

  Mr Goulden: I do not think there would be an issue in a Jewish school. As Mohammed just said, and I have no doubt my colleagues would agree, there are very clear faith guidelines on a whole range of morality topics, and he dealt with a couple just now. There is no question that there is an enormous body of literature, certainly in Judaism, on the subject, but there is also no question in Judaism, and I would imagine in other Abrahamic religions that are with me on the table today, we all believe that we are all made in the image of the Almighty. That would mean that everybody is made in the image of the Almighty and also mean that we have to respect their particular viewpoints and we must, of course, whilst holding on to our own particular faith views, understand that other people have different views. That is not to say that we necessarily agree with them but we understand and respect the fact that they have these views. I do not know where this fits into the citizenship debate.

  Q302  Mr Marsden: I think it fits in very centrally because one of the reasons, it seems to me, others may dispute it, the Government has been so keen to promote the Citizenship Agenda is that there is a very real debate about how we get a consensus if we can or at least a consensus about the sort of values that we should discuss in a society, whether we like it or not, where there is a more pluralistic view on some of these various issues, whether they are moral issues or some of the other issues we have touched on, than there would have been 50 or 100 years ago and where the sources of external authority, again whether we are happy about it or not, families, et cetera, are more attenuated certainly outside faith communities than they would have been 50 to 100 years ago. Maybe the question I should be asking on that is if multi-ethnic, multi-cultural Britain continues to become more pluralistic in its views and its attitudes in these areas, do you think that is going to make life more difficult for faith schools in trying to come in alongside what the Government is doing on citizenship or not?

  Dr Mukadam: This might sound a bit simplistic, but let me put it from a faith perspective. We talk about respect and so forth, but we really do not have any problems with that and this is what we are trying to devolve to our youngsters. A far more important thing for us in terms of respect is to respect the fellow human being and respect his or her right to hold different views. That is what we need to clearly understand. That does not necessarily mean I will respect what your views are because if I did then there is nothing stopping me swapping values, but if I can respect your right to hold a different value then I think it allows us to co-exist in a very peaceful and harmonious way, contributing positively to our society. That is exactly what we are trying to do. I am not saying that we are there but this is certainly the way we are developing. I hope that gives you a better answer to the question about the debate about respect and the differences. In a diverse society there must be room for having diverse views and people to be able to hold those views, express them, discuss them and debate them. That is not an issue at all from an Islamic point of view. There is an issue when people try to force you to say, "No, you have got to respect values", when they are completely different from their own. That is going to be a problem, and it will be a problem in a pluralistic society and a diverse society but as long as we can educate our youngsters to respect the right of fellow human beings to think differently and hold different views, then I think it does provide the ingredients for a more harmonious and peaceful co-existence.

  Q303  Mr Marsden: Can I ask a brief question to you all. It is about training and the capacity to cope with some of these difficult issues, not just the moral issues we have touched on but some of the more political issues which David Chaytor raised earlier. Do you think the climate of opinion in this country, and the debates that have taken place since the bombings of 7 July last year, have made it more difficult for teachers in your schools to set up situations where they can address those issues? If they have, what are you doing to improve their ability and their training in those sensitive areas?

  Ms Stannard: Naturally all teachers and all leaders in schools have been greatly exercised by the horrors of those events and are very anxious to make sure that what they provide in their schools helps in however small a way to combat the difficulties and problems that may have indicated as present in society. I could not give you chapter and verse on training and so on now, but I could obtain that for you if you wish. I am confident that through our diocesan officers and the support services they run, and through our national board of advisers, there are forums and so on for that. I know we share anxieties about the lack of opportunity to prepare to be a teacher of citizenship within the higher education courses being pursued by teachers on their way to qualification. We would like to see more attention being paid to that. I would also like to say, if you do not mind, as you were talking previously, I kept hearing in my mind—and I cannot remember who said it—about the fact that when thinking about sin—and you seem very keen to get right down into the faith issues—the saying, "Dislike the sin but love the sinner" and the most important value of all is the sanctity of human life. I have no doubt that in dealing with the horrendous issues that have occurred, and which you alluded to, it is that sanctity of life and respect and appreciation of one another which is underpinning the work that is going on in the schools.

  Mr McKemey: The broad answer to the question is yes, these events have created challenges. As you probably know, there are a number of Church of England schools which have over 90% Muslim populations and so on, and I have been in some of those schools. What I would say, and I have to admit it is anecdotal, is the values of those particular schools have been very resilient. There have been far more issues on the street than in the schools. The schools are, certainly the ones I have been in, by and large islands of tranquillity and harmony which have not been affected and, in some cases, they have helped the community to gel better.

  Q304  Chairman: You talked about attitudes towards homosexuality in faith schools, but one thing you did not answer was the question on the role of women in society.

  Mr Goulden: I have to be very careful. I am sure my wife, the head teacher of the school, and many of my women friends and colleagues who are head teachers, would appreciate perhaps what I am going to say. I do not see, and I do not believe, that there is an issue about the role of women in Jewish society. For hundreds of years women have been not just homemakers but also taking an enormous part in the life of the community. You can go back to biblical times and see that the Woman of Worth was one not just who looked after her family but also seemed to run a business at the same time. The role of women in Jewish society has perforce over the centuries changed as the role of society has changed and things are different now. Professions and jobs are open to everybody which perhaps were not open to women 100 years ago. I have a daughter-in-law who is a doctor; 100 years ago, 150 years ago there were no women doctors. It is not a matter of the faith community changing its attitudes indeed but the whole society changing its attitudes. Certainly in Judaism's view of women's role in society I do not see that there is an issue. Certainly none of the schools that we deal with would regard this as a discussion point.

  Q305  Chairman: Mohammed, in the Muslim religion, are there any conflicts between the beliefs of your religion and equal status of women and equal education for women?

  Dr Mukadam: Chairman, sometimes it is difficult to separate beliefs and culture. Given the diversity of the Muslim community, there are Muslim communities which have a very particular view about women being educated and developing some professionalism, and there are others with a more moderate approach. If I can give an example. I come from Leicester and we have one of the most orthodox, conservative communities in the UK. When I took over the running of the Islamic school there were hardly half a dozen or so young girls going on to further and higher education. Quite clearly that was a challenge to find out why this was the case because I know Islam does not prohibit that. It was then a task to go around and speak to parents and the imams to say, "Why are we holding our young women back?" and giving them the figures about high levels of divorce and young women who would be unable to do things that they would like to do. It is trying to understand their concerns and then meeting those concerns within a faith school. From half a dozen or so young girls just about making it to further education we have come to a point, Chairman, where over 95% of our young girls are going on to further and higher education. Indeed, some of your colleagues, like David Miliband, Tim Collins, Dr Reid and many journalists, have come to the school and have seen young girls with hijab coming from a very orthodox family but, having a very well-educated background, they are willing to challenge and so forth. These young women are going into universities. In a way, we have liberated those young women. It is about understanding their concerns and approaching it from a grass roots level rather than a top-down approach on issues of values. It will depend on the approaches we employ that will help young girls realise their aspirations. Talking about resources, those schools will need to be resourced properly so that young girls coming from particularly orthodox or conservative families will be given the opportunities to progress into further and higher education, that is by understanding the concerns. The principal concern is that our young girls will be lost to western society, that is the thing I am talking about. Once we address those and develop that confidence between young girls and their parents we will find those parents are very supportive. Indeed, I would love to invite all of you to the Leicester Islamic Academy to meet some of the young women who your colleagues have met. It would be a wonderful opportunity for us to have you there as well.

  Q306  Stephen Williams: Chairman, quite a lot of the questions I would have asked have been cherry-picked already, so I will probably be brief. Can I go back to a point which you made, Chairman, about what the British Humanist Society has said about faith schools. They have alleged they discriminate against everyone who is not of their faith on grounds of admissions of pupils, employment policies for teachers and in their curriculum and their ethos. I would expect witnesses to refute this but do you concede that there are grounds for suspicion from people who do not have a religion or do not have particularly strong religious views?

  Ms Stannard: Chairman, with respect, I thought we were here to talk about citizenship education not to have to give a defence of faith schools per se.

  Q307  Chairman: I do not think you are.

  Ms Stannard: Maybe I have not listened to your question.

  Q308  Stephen Williams: I was coming up with an easy way into this. Let me draw down right into the detail there about how sin might be counted in a citizenship class. Gordon Marsden mentioned homosexuality in schools. Could you foresee a situation in your schools—clearly each of the religions represented here would say that homosexuality is a sin and that might be said more in an assembly—at 10 o clock that morning in a citizenship class a counter-view would be put to that, that homosexuality is found throughout society and throughout the world, and is certainly not only tolerated but is legally protected in this country?

  Mr Goulden: One of my teachers once said to me that homosexuality is a sin but not a crime. I think it is important to decouple those two. The morality and the legality is something that we should be aware of and clearly he was teaching it. I think you would find that would be the view in the schools certainly that I have connections with. You would also find, I have little doubt, that if there was a discussion there would be a number of students who would say, either because of a family connection or friends, they knew people who were not heterosexual, and there would clearly be a discussion on that basis. I do not think people would duck the issue, and I have got no difficulty in believing that the schools in which we work would have that as their viewpoint. I am a little concerned that I am getting a little bit out of my depth as I assumed we would be talking about citizenship.

  Chairman: We will get back to the mainstream citizenship questions at this time because we have explored that already.

  Q309  Stephen Williams: Would a citizenship class in a faith school give a counter-view to a morning assembly which said that something was sinful, that is directly about citizenship?

  Mr Goulden: In a Jewish school that is not the way an assembly would be run. At least I hope I have answered the question appropriately, Chairman.

  Ms Stannard: May I add, Chairman, that I would not expect it to be handled in a way like that at an assembly.

  Mr McKemey: I think you can differentiate there between an act of worship and a school assembly, they are not tantamount to the same thing. Whilst they may vary in character, they have different objectives by and large. What we have established is we would certainly expect our schools to be able to conduct vigorous debate, an examination of any social issue, within the context of a Christian caring community. That is perfectly possible. That is what we expect to happen and is what we know happens. It would be impossible for most of our schools to exclude all these issues. It does not mean that the school will necessarily endorse whatever the current public mood might be on an issue. One of the points about a faith school is that it will challenge values as they arrive. In other words, they do not accept everything which the public decides. To put it in context, there was an article over the weekend about Edward de Bono and the notion of founding a new religion. One of the points he is making is we live in this consumerist instant gratification culture. We think the faith schools have something very serious to bring to that agenda in terms of developing and educating, in our case, the entire human being.

  Q310  Stephen Williams: Can I change to a completely different subject. Last week the Minister of State for Higher Education and Lifelong Learning, Bill Rammell, made some speech and a radio interview about British values and how they should be taught in schools. Can each of you offer an opinion briefly of what you think British values are? Do you see any scope for a conflict with your faith which might be resolved in a citizenship class?

  Mr Goulden: Chairman, I struggled with the discussion that you allude to. I have read the speech, and I have struggled and teased it out with friends, family and colleagues about what Britishness is. I think I know inside myself but I find it difficult to put it into words. I read what the Daily Telegraph a few years ago had as the "ten commandments" of Britishness. I do not necessarily think it is warm beer and cricket on the green because that is Englishness. I think with the current debate about whether British is English and what about the Scottish, Welsh and Irish and the West Lothian question, there is a difficulty in many people's minds, not just the faith communities, I hesitate there, about exactly what is meant by Britishness. I would appreciate from you some steer on what exactly is meant by Britishness.

  Q311  Chairman: Simon, when we write up our Report we are going to have a good evaluation because that is one of the things we will be tackling. Does anyone else want to come in on Britishness, Oona?

  Ms Stannard: I got some fairly strong responses from the schools I wrote to and raised this after Mr Rammell's speech, although I have to admit I have not read his speech in its entirety. The response is divided into three different camps. There were some who immediately started giving me ideas for what they thought would be meant by British values, which ranged from things like being able to laugh at ourselves to being characterised by democracy, the BBC and the NHS and so on, and the list went on and on, a real ragbag of things. There was a second group who said, "British values are what we are teaching and experiencing in our schools anyway, is it not, that is what citizenship is delivering based on our Christian values and our human values anyway". Finally, there was a third group who really strongly opposed this notion of British values and started saying how patronising it was, "Who is going to define what is British?", it sounded racist, makes such values sound superior, the notion of nationalism being brought in, and really feeling very concerned that we might have this cadre of things which they thought would be open to propaganda and a superior view of things. In fact, one person wrote quite strongly saying, "Are British values our imperial past, the aristocracy, the success of the wealthy over and above the poorer? Are we going to be at risk of going back to some historical model which is hardly what any of us would want to see?" I share all that, simply to make a plea, let us not go racing down that road without very, very careful consideration, and to say I am sure any of us would be more than willing to help in more detailed discussions on that.

  Dr Mukadam: We welcome the debate, shall I say, but we have taken a slightly different approach here, Chairman. In a world of globalisation we are in a global village. We felt it was important to teach universal values which hold human beings together and allow youngsters who have been born in this country—because it is a state of flux at the moment, and it is a completely different country now with people coming in from different backgrounds—time and space to debate and see what they come up with as British values. It is very much a grass root approach rather than a top-down approach, but providing those universal values.

  Q312  Stephen Williams: You admit that you have not read Bill Rammell's speech, but has the DfES consulted with any of you, or your organisations, on this debate about Britishness?

  Mr McKemey: Not specifically, no.

  Mr Goulden: Since he only gave his speech last week, it is a little early.

  Chairman: A lot of Britishness is disappearing. It used to be renowned for bad food, that is no longer the case, I hope.

  Q313  Dr Blackman-Woods: I want to pick up two issues specifically relating directly to citizenship education. I grew up in a country defined by faith schools. I think they added enormously to the problems of Northern Ireland, although, unlike some people, I do not think they were the cause. What that education did not do was supply the two communities with the tools to be able to understand the other community. When push came to shove all that happened was the primary identity factor, which was religion, came to the fore in a most unhelpful way contributing to further segregation. My question to you about citizenship education is how are you doing the job differently than it was done when I grew up in a very segregated system? How are you doing it in an active way because as the second point I want to take dispute with what some of you were saying earlier. My experience was that understanding another community theoretically did not help in terms of understanding where they were coming from. What was needed was a degree of interaction, and that would have been needed from an early stage to fully understand the other perspective. In Britain we have got a much more diversified population, but I think those tools are needed across all of the sectors. You have been saying you want a question specifically about citizenship, this is my question. How are you giving your young people those tools?

  Mr McKemey: It goes back to Archbishop Rowan's speech in which he opened this out, and following that there have been some quite fruitful initiatives now about youngsters from different faiths experiencing periods of time in other faith schools. There are the beginnings and this has been picked up and welcomed by representatives of other faiths. One diocese, Manchester, is just putting in a programme that will do just that. Having said that, the population in many of our schools is very diverse, even within the Christian dimension. I do not honestly think the parallels with Northern Ireland really hold in that sense. Having taken that, there is considerable comment that we are in danger of creating faith ghettos, and I think all of us would feel that really is not the case because apart from anything else these are publicly-funded schools, they teach the National Curriculum, they are inspected by Ofsted and are accountable across the piece for those sorts of things. Can I read you a tiny bit from Church Schools: A National Vision. This was the Archbishop of Canterbury's speech. It says: "Translate this to a less intensive and dramatic level and you have one of the most compelling arguments for religious schools being part of the public system. For those who want their children to undertake the experiment of living in a climate of commitment, such a school offers, not a programme of indoctrination but the possibility of a new level of emotional and imaginative literacy through the understanding of how faith shapes common life. And this matters for the lives of individuals, agnostic or even atheist as much as believing; as it matters in a world where not to understand how faith operates leaves you at sea in engaging with the other, the stranger, at home and abroad". I think what he is talking about is faith schools can provide a much richer currency for the understanding of the belief and faith.

  Ms Stannard: I would agree with what Nick has said. I would also point out that I gave many examples earlier of how our pupils are sharing activities with pupils from other schools. They are not being educated, in my case fortress Catholic. Typically there would be 30% of pupils other than Catholic in our schools. They are racially diverse communities and they are outwardly engaging communities. I do think it is very significantly a different context from that of Northern Ireland.

  Q314  Chairman: You still think there are problems in the way in which faith groups organise themselves in Northern Ireland?

  Ms Stannard: I am not qualified to comment on Northern Ireland, I can only talk from my own experience.

  Q315  Chairman: Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, and Roberta has personal experience of the difficulties that have emerged. Surely there are some lessons we can learn from that?

  Ms Stannard: I am inept at the history of Northern Ireland.

  Q316  Chairman: I have to say those of us who are English and went to Northern Ireland on a visit were shocked to still see on one campus schools that do not talk to each other and have no communication with each other. We were astonished that in the 21st century that was the situation. It is not a situation we can applaud, surely?

  Ms Stannard: I would never applaud being fortress-like in our approach to education and the experiences that we give to our young people. I revel in the fact that we are an ethnically diverse community.

  Q317  Dr Blackman-Woods: I do not want to distract us from the essential question, which was what are the tools you are giving? I think you are going some way to answer that question. But I would not like you to be suggesting, or I hope you are not, that there are not Catholic and Anglican schools in this country that are not predominantly Catholic and Anglican. I have a Catholic school in my constituency which must be 98% Catholic. There are schools here that are very highly segregated. You may represent schools where they do have a more diversified population within the school, but I think you have to recognise there are some schools that are defined by faith and they are very predominately of that faith.

  Ms Stannard: I think that is a particular demographic problem where there is a shortage of schools and so on. Would I not also be right in saying that here in this country we tend to live in areas where the housing, and so on, is not defined by one faith group, and perhaps is that different in Northern Ireland? When our children go out to play, will they not be playing with other children from all sorts of groups, the youth clubs they go to for socialising and so on, but on top of that, in their work with schools, their various sporting fixtures, the joint activities, the charitable works and various events and so on which they are engaging, they will be different I hope.

  Q318  Dr Blackman-Woods: My question was not tell me why the situation in Northern Ireland continues, my question to you was what specific tools and how do you shape citizenship education to ensure that your young people will grow up with a sense of validity for other points of view which are very different from theirs and the respect for those individuals who hold very different views?

  Ms Stannard: We spoke much earlier on about the fact that in all our faiths we are called to see God in the other person. In the curriculum and the learning we provide that must be carried through and must be a lived experience.

  Dr Mukadam: In terms of what tools we provide, we have discussed those in terms of values, skills, communicating with fellow human beings and some of the cultures in which communications should take place, whether it is through literature or history, et cetera. If you look at it in terms of experience, many well-run faith schools funded indeed by the Government do have what is known as the Building Bridges Programmes. Indeed, we had Stephen Twigg come to see us. We have opportunities for young people from a faith school to go to another school and vice versa, and they share this in drama, et cetera. Let us open it up. There is life beyond school. We live in a world where there is text, SMS, chat rooms, internet, et cetera, and young people do communicate across cultures and faiths in different parts of the world and so forth. There are ample opportunities for young people in terms of communicating ideas, discussing, debating and talking, but also communities are changing in that there are many facilities—sports facilities, recreational facilities—where young people from different faiths, of no faith and cultures, do get together in the evenings and at weekends to enjoy some sport or recreation. Tools are provided in terms of values, skills and opportunities within schools and outside schools. I believe all those put together are ensuring that young people who are being educated in faith schools do in the fullness of time integrate sufficiently and contribute in a very positive manner to society.

  Q319  Dr Blackman-Woods: I think I would have a series of questions, maybe not for today, about whether you evaluate if those schemes are important in shifting ideas and engendering some respect. I have another question which is following on from what Stephen said earlier. It is where your faith and your teaching comes in through citizenship into the construction of identity. Are you starting from a concept of citizenship that sees people as world human beings and then somewhere you slot your faith identity into that, or are you shaping their concept of identity and therefore citizenship, to some degree, through your faith?

  Dr Mukadam: I believe that choice is really up to the parents to make. There are faith schools and there are schools that do not have any faith, it is secular and comprehensive. It is the parents who are making those choices for the children. I believe it is only right that those choices are available. Parents make the choices, they want a particular choice for the child so they send them to a faith school.


 
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