Examination of Witnesses (Questions 300-319)
MR SIMON
GOULDEN, DR
MOHAMMED MUKADAM,
MR NICK
MCKEMEY
AND MS
OONA STANNARD
22 MAY 2006
Q300 Mr Marsden: I think that is
absolutely fine. I would like to move on to Simon and Mohammed
and, by all means, through you, Chairman, touch briefly on this
point, if you would like to. In a way I would like to take them
a little bit further and, again, perhaps in the context of having
specific time in the school day to discuss or to look at these
difficult issues. I think both of you mentioned ethics, values
and morals on a couple of occasions but the issue is, is it not,
that in multi-ethnic and multi-cultural Britain today there are
a very striking variety of views on some key issues which inevitably
come up. Let me take two or three very specific examples: attitudes
towards the position of women in society varying enormously, not
just between faith groups but within faith groups; attitudes perhaps
towards the centrality of marriage and attitudes towards homosexuality.
To what extent are you confident, again to reflect something my
colleague David Chaytor said, that within your treatment of citizenship
in your schools those sorts of complex issues, on which people
inevitably will have very different views, can be taken forward?
Dr Mukadam: Can I look at it in
a slightly different way. If you separate the notion about a good
citizen and an active citizen, perhaps we can see. In that sense
I think it is important to ring-fence some of those things to
create what I believe is an active citizen because you can have
a good citizen who can be a very passive citizen. In terms of
the debates which you mentioned, specifically about the attitude
to women, homosexuality, et cetera, these pose no problems at
all for faith schools where they are well-run and have a broader
understanding of Islam. Of course Islam has its clear views about
homosexuality and those are discussed in schools, but it would
be wrong to translate that as homophobic, or whatever you want
to call it. Although the Koran is very clear that homosexuality
as an act is sinful and so forth, I do not think the Koran teaches
that they should go around beating up any homosexuals, so there
is a difference. There is room for holding one's own views and
to discuss this, and to uphold them. It is equally important to
make sure that they respect their fellow human beings and do not
go around doing things which are illegal.
Q301 Mr Marsden: With respect, if
I may pick you up on that, it comes back to a word I think you
used, Simon Goulden, because you talked about the difference between
toleration and respect. Whether it is a debate about women or
it is a debate about attitudes towards homosexuality, what many
people would argue is what is important in those schools, or in
an educational system, is there should be the capability of having
a debate, not just about—if I can put it this way—gritted
teeth toleration but about respect for other members of society
who have a lifestyle or can take an attitude or have a perception
of themselves which is different perhaps from a traditional Islamic
or indeed any other faith-based view.
Mr Goulden: I do not think there
would be an issue in a Jewish school. As Mohammed just said, and
I have no doubt my colleagues would agree, there are very clear
faith guidelines on a whole range of morality topics, and he dealt
with a couple just now. There is no question that there is an
enormous body of literature, certainly in Judaism, on the subject,
but there is also no question in Judaism, and I would imagine
in other Abrahamic religions that are with me on the table today,
we all believe that we are all made in the image of the Almighty.
That would mean that everybody is made in the image of the Almighty
and also mean that we have to respect their particular viewpoints
and we must, of course, whilst holding on to our own particular
faith views, understand that other people have different views.
That is not to say that we necessarily agree with them but we
understand and respect the fact that they have these views. I
do not know where this fits into the citizenship debate.
Q302 Mr Marsden: I think it fits
in very centrally because one of the reasons, it seems to me,
others may dispute it, the Government has been so keen to promote
the Citizenship Agenda is that there is a very real debate about
how we get a consensus if we can or at least a consensus about
the sort of values that we should discuss in a society, whether
we like it or not, where there is a more pluralistic view on some
of these various issues, whether they are moral issues or some
of the other issues we have touched on, than there would have
been 50 or 100 years ago and where the sources of external authority,
again whether we are happy about it or not, families, et cetera,
are more attenuated certainly outside faith communities than they
would have been 50 to 100 years ago. Maybe the question I should
be asking on that is if multi-ethnic, multi-cultural Britain continues
to become more pluralistic in its views and its attitudes in these
areas, do you think that is going to make life more difficult
for faith schools in trying to come in alongside what the Government
is doing on citizenship or not?
Dr Mukadam: This might sound a
bit simplistic, but let me put it from a faith perspective. We
talk about respect and so forth, but we really do not have any
problems with that and this is what we are trying to devolve to
our youngsters. A far more important thing for us in terms of
respect is to respect the fellow human being and respect his or
her right to hold different views. That is what we need to clearly
understand. That does not necessarily mean I will respect what
your views are because if I did then there is nothing stopping
me swapping values, but if I can respect your right to hold a
different value then I think it allows us to co-exist in a very
peaceful and harmonious way, contributing positively to our society.
That is exactly what we are trying to do. I am not saying that
we are there but this is certainly the way we are developing.
I hope that gives you a better answer to the question about the
debate about respect and the differences. In a diverse society
there must be room for having diverse views and people to be able
to hold those views, express them, discuss them and debate them.
That is not an issue at all from an Islamic point of view. There
is an issue when people try to force you to say, "No, you
have got to respect values", when they are completely different
from their own. That is going to be a problem, and it will be
a problem in a pluralistic society and a diverse society but as
long as we can educate our youngsters to respect the right of
fellow human beings to think differently and hold different views,
then I think it does provide the ingredients for a more harmonious
and peaceful co-existence.
Q303 Mr Marsden: Can I ask a brief
question to you all. It is about training and the capacity to
cope with some of these difficult issues, not just the moral issues
we have touched on but some of the more political issues which
David Chaytor raised earlier. Do you think the climate of opinion
in this country, and the debates that have taken place since the
bombings of 7 July last year, have made it more difficult for
teachers in your schools to set up situations where they can address
those issues? If they have, what are you doing to improve their
ability and their training in those sensitive areas?
Ms Stannard: Naturally all teachers
and all leaders in schools have been greatly exercised by the
horrors of those events and are very anxious to make sure that
what they provide in their schools helps in however small a way
to combat the difficulties and problems that may have indicated
as present in society. I could not give you chapter and verse
on training and so on now, but I could obtain that for you if
you wish. I am confident that through our diocesan officers and
the support services they run, and through our national board
of advisers, there are forums and so on for that. I know we share
anxieties about the lack of opportunity to prepare to be a teacher
of citizenship within the higher education courses being pursued
by teachers on their way to qualification. We would like to see
more attention being paid to that. I would also like to say, if
you do not mind, as you were talking previously, I kept hearing
in my mind—and I cannot remember who said it—about
the fact that when thinking about sin—and you seem very
keen to get right down into the faith issues—the saying,
"Dislike the sin but love the sinner" and the most important
value of all is the sanctity of human life. I have no doubt that
in dealing with the horrendous issues that have occurred, and
which you alluded to, it is that sanctity of life and respect
and appreciation of one another which is underpinning the work
that is going on in the schools.
Mr McKemey: The broad answer to
the question is yes, these events have created challenges. As
you probably know, there are a number of Church of England schools
which have over 90% Muslim populations and so on, and I have been
in some of those schools. What I would say, and I have to admit
it is anecdotal, is the values of those particular schools have
been very resilient. There have been far more issues on the street
than in the schools. The schools are, certainly the ones I have
been in, by and large islands of tranquillity and harmony which
have not been affected and, in some cases, they have helped the
community to gel better.
Q304 Chairman: You talked about attitudes
towards homosexuality in faith schools, but one thing you did
not answer was the question on the role of women in society.
Mr Goulden: I have to be very
careful. I am sure my wife, the head teacher of the school, and
many of my women friends and colleagues who are head teachers,
would appreciate perhaps what I am going to say. I do not see,
and I do not believe, that there is an issue about the role of
women in Jewish society. For hundreds of years women have been
not just homemakers but also taking an enormous part in the life
of the community. You can go back to biblical times and see that
the Woman of Worth was one not just who looked after her family
but also seemed to run a business at the same time. The role of
women in Jewish society has perforce over the centuries changed
as the role of society has changed and things are different now.
Professions and jobs are open to everybody which perhaps were
not open to women 100 years ago. I have a daughter-in-law who
is a doctor; 100 years ago, 150 years ago there were no women
doctors. It is not a matter of the faith community changing its
attitudes indeed but the whole society changing its attitudes.
Certainly in Judaism's view of women's role in society I do not
see that there is an issue. Certainly none of the schools that
we deal with would regard this as a discussion point.
Q305 Chairman: Mohammed, in the Muslim
religion, are there any conflicts between the beliefs of your
religion and equal status of women and equal education for women?
Dr Mukadam: Chairman, sometimes
it is difficult to separate beliefs and culture. Given the diversity
of the Muslim community, there are Muslim communities which have
a very particular view about women being educated and developing
some professionalism, and there are others with a more moderate
approach. If I can give an example. I come from Leicester and
we have one of the most orthodox, conservative communities in
the UK. When I took over the running of the Islamic school there
were hardly half a dozen or so young girls going on to further
and higher education. Quite clearly that was a challenge to find
out why this was the case because I know Islam does not prohibit
that. It was then a task to go around and speak to parents and
the imams to say, "Why are we holding our young women back?"
and giving them the figures about high levels of divorce and young
women who would be unable to do things that they would like to
do. It is trying to understand their concerns and then meeting
those concerns within a faith school. From half a dozen or so
young girls just about making it to further education we have
come to a point, Chairman, where over 95% of our young girls are
going on to further and higher education. Indeed, some of your
colleagues, like David Miliband, Tim Collins, Dr Reid and many
journalists, have come to the school and have seen young girls
with hijab coming from a very orthodox family but, having a very
well-educated background, they are willing to challenge and so
forth. These young women are going into universities. In a way,
we have liberated those young women. It is about understanding
their concerns and approaching it from a grass roots level rather
than a top-down approach on issues of values. It will depend on
the approaches we employ that will help young girls realise their
aspirations. Talking about resources, those schools will need
to be resourced properly so that young girls coming from particularly
orthodox or conservative families will be given the opportunities
to progress into further and higher education, that is by understanding
the concerns. The principal concern is that our young girls will
be lost to western society, that is the thing I am talking about.
Once we address those and develop that confidence between young
girls and their parents we will find those parents are very supportive.
Indeed, I would love to invite all of you to the Leicester Islamic
Academy to meet some of the young women who your colleagues have
met. It would be a wonderful opportunity for us to have you there
as well.
Q306 Stephen Williams: Chairman,
quite a lot of the questions I would have asked have been cherry-picked
already, so I will probably be brief. Can I go back to a point
which you made, Chairman, about what the British Humanist Society
has said about faith schools. They have alleged they discriminate
against everyone who is not of their faith on grounds of admissions
of pupils, employment policies for teachers and in their curriculum
and their ethos. I would expect witnesses to refute this but do
you concede that there are grounds for suspicion from people who
do not have a religion or do not have particularly strong religious
views?
Ms Stannard: Chairman, with respect,
I thought we were here to talk about citizenship education not
to have to give a defence of faith schools per se.
Q307 Chairman: I do not think you
are.
Ms Stannard: Maybe I have not
listened to your question.
Q308 Stephen Williams: I was coming
up with an easy way into this. Let me draw down right into the
detail there about how sin might be counted in a citizenship class.
Gordon Marsden mentioned homosexuality in schools. Could you foresee
a situation in your schools—clearly each of the religions
represented here would say that homosexuality is a sin and that
might be said more in an assembly—at 10 o clock that morning
in a citizenship class a counter-view would be put to that, that
homosexuality is found throughout society and throughout the world,
and is certainly not only tolerated but is legally protected in
this country?
Mr Goulden: One of my teachers
once said to me that homosexuality is a sin but not a crime. I
think it is important to decouple those two. The morality and
the legality is something that we should be aware of and clearly
he was teaching it. I think you would find that would be the view
in the schools certainly that I have connections with. You would
also find, I have little doubt, that if there was a discussion
there would be a number of students who would say, either because
of a family connection or friends, they knew people who were not
heterosexual, and there would clearly be a discussion on that
basis. I do not think people would duck the issue, and I have
got no difficulty in believing that the schools in which we work
would have that as their viewpoint. I am a little concerned that
I am getting a little bit out of my depth as I assumed we would
be talking about citizenship.
Chairman: We will get back to the mainstream
citizenship questions at this time because we have explored that
already.
Q309 Stephen Williams: Would a citizenship
class in a faith school give a counter-view to a morning assembly
which said that something was sinful, that is directly about citizenship?
Mr Goulden: In a Jewish school
that is not the way an assembly would be run. At least I hope
I have answered the question appropriately, Chairman.
Ms Stannard: May I add, Chairman,
that I would not expect it to be handled in a way like that at
an assembly.
Mr McKemey: I think you can differentiate
there between an act of worship and a school assembly, they are
not tantamount to the same thing. Whilst they may vary in character,
they have different objectives by and large. What we have established
is we would certainly expect our schools to be able to conduct
vigorous debate, an examination of any social issue, within the
context of a Christian caring community. That is perfectly possible.
That is what we expect to happen and is what we know happens.
It would be impossible for most of our schools to exclude all
these issues. It does not mean that the school will necessarily
endorse whatever the current public mood might be on an issue.
One of the points about a faith school is that it will challenge
values as they arrive. In other words, they do not accept everything
which the public decides. To put it in context, there was an article
over the weekend about Edward de Bono and the notion of founding
a new religion. One of the points he is making is we live in this
consumerist instant gratification culture. We think the faith
schools have something very serious to bring to that agenda in
terms of developing and educating, in our case, the entire human
being.
Q310 Stephen Williams: Can I change
to a completely different subject. Last week the Minister of State
for Higher Education and Lifelong Learning, Bill Rammell, made
some speech and a radio interview about British values and how
they should be taught in schools. Can each of you offer an opinion
briefly of what you think British values are? Do you see any scope
for a conflict with your faith which might be resolved in a citizenship
class?
Mr Goulden: Chairman, I struggled
with the discussion that you allude to. I have read the speech,
and I have struggled and teased it out with friends, family and
colleagues about what Britishness is. I think I know inside myself
but I find it difficult to put it into words. I read what the
Daily Telegraph a few years ago had as the "ten commandments"
of Britishness. I do not necessarily think it is warm beer and
cricket on the green because that is Englishness. I think with
the current debate about whether British is English and what about
the Scottish, Welsh and Irish and the West Lothian question, there
is a difficulty in many people's minds, not just the faith communities,
I hesitate there, about exactly what is meant by Britishness.
I would appreciate from you some steer on what exactly is meant
by Britishness.
Q311 Chairman: Simon, when we write
up our Report we are going to have a good evaluation because that
is one of the things we will be tackling. Does anyone else want
to come in on Britishness, Oona?
Ms Stannard: I got some fairly
strong responses from the schools I wrote to and raised this after
Mr Rammell's speech, although I have to admit I have not read
his speech in its entirety. The response is divided into three
different camps. There were some who immediately started giving
me ideas for what they thought would be meant by British values,
which ranged from things like being able to laugh at ourselves
to being characterised by democracy, the BBC and the NHS and so
on, and the list went on and on, a real ragbag of things. There
was a second group who said, "British values are what we
are teaching and experiencing in our schools anyway, is it not,
that is what citizenship is delivering based on our Christian
values and our human values anyway". Finally, there was a
third group who really strongly opposed this notion of British
values and started saying how patronising it was, "Who is
going to define what is British?", it sounded racist, makes
such values sound superior, the notion of nationalism being brought
in, and really feeling very concerned that we might have this
cadre of things which they thought would be open to propaganda
and a superior view of things. In fact, one person wrote quite
strongly saying, "Are British values our imperial past, the
aristocracy, the success of the wealthy over and above the poorer?
Are we going to be at risk of going back to some historical model
which is hardly what any of us would want to see?" I share
all that, simply to make a plea, let us not go racing down that
road without very, very careful consideration, and to say I am
sure any of us would be more than willing to help in more detailed
discussions on that.
Dr Mukadam: We welcome the debate,
shall I say, but we have taken a slightly different approach here,
Chairman. In a world of globalisation we are in a global village.
We felt it was important to teach universal values which hold
human beings together and allow youngsters who have been born
in this country—because it is a state of flux at the moment,
and it is a completely different country now with people coming
in from different backgrounds—time and space to debate and
see what they come up with as British values. It is very much
a grass root approach rather than a top-down approach, but providing
those universal values.
Q312 Stephen Williams: You admit
that you have not read Bill Rammell's speech, but has the DfES
consulted with any of you, or your organisations, on this debate
about Britishness?
Mr McKemey: Not specifically,
no.
Mr Goulden: Since he only gave
his speech last week, it is a little early.
Chairman: A lot of Britishness is disappearing.
It used to be renowned for bad food, that is no longer the case,
I hope.
Q313 Dr Blackman-Woods: I want to
pick up two issues specifically relating directly to citizenship
education. I grew up in a country defined by faith schools. I
think they added enormously to the problems of Northern Ireland,
although, unlike some people, I do not think they were the cause.
What that education did not do was supply the two communities
with the tools to be able to understand the other community. When
push came to shove all that happened was the primary identity
factor, which was religion, came to the fore in a most unhelpful
way contributing to further segregation. My question to you about
citizenship education is how are you doing the job differently
than it was done when I grew up in a very segregated system? How
are you doing it in an active way because as the second point
I want to take dispute with what some of you were saying earlier.
My experience was that understanding another community theoretically
did not help in terms of understanding where they were coming
from. What was needed was a degree of interaction, and that would
have been needed from an early stage to fully understand the other
perspective. In Britain we have got a much more diversified population,
but I think those tools are needed across all of the sectors.
You have been saying you want a question specifically about citizenship,
this is my question. How are you giving your young people those
tools?
Mr McKemey: It goes back to Archbishop
Rowan's speech in which he opened this out, and following that
there have been some quite fruitful initiatives now about youngsters
from different faiths experiencing periods of time in other faith
schools. There are the beginnings and this has been picked up
and welcomed by representatives of other faiths. One diocese,
Manchester, is just putting in a programme that will do just that.
Having said that, the population in many of our schools is very
diverse, even within the Christian dimension. I do not honestly
think the parallels with Northern Ireland really hold in that
sense. Having taken that, there is considerable comment that we
are in danger of creating faith ghettos, and I think all of us
would feel that really is not the case because apart from anything
else these are publicly-funded schools, they teach the National
Curriculum, they are inspected by Ofsted and are accountable across
the piece for those sorts of things. Can I read you a tiny bit
from Church Schools: A National Vision. This was the Archbishop
of Canterbury's speech. It says: "Translate this to a less
intensive and dramatic level and you have one of the most compelling
arguments for religious schools being part of the public system.
For those who want their children to undertake the experiment
of living in a climate of commitment, such a school offers, not
a programme of indoctrination but the possibility of a new level
of emotional and imaginative literacy through the understanding
of how faith shapes common life. And this matters for the lives
of individuals, agnostic or even atheist as much as believing;
as it matters in a world where not to understand how faith operates
leaves you at sea in engaging with the other, the stranger, at
home and abroad". I think what he is talking about is faith
schools can provide a much richer currency for the understanding
of the belief and faith.
Ms Stannard: I would agree with
what Nick has said. I would also point out that I gave many examples
earlier of how our pupils are sharing activities with pupils from
other schools. They are not being educated, in my case fortress
Catholic. Typically there would be 30% of pupils other than Catholic
in our schools. They are racially diverse communities and they
are outwardly engaging communities. I do think it is very significantly
a different context from that of Northern Ireland.
Q314 Chairman: You still think there
are problems in the way in which faith groups organise themselves
in Northern Ireland?
Ms Stannard: I am not qualified
to comment on Northern Ireland, I can only talk from my own experience.
Q315 Chairman: Northern Ireland is
part of the United Kingdom, and Roberta has personal experience
of the difficulties that have emerged. Surely there are some lessons
we can learn from that?
Ms Stannard: I am inept at the
history of Northern Ireland.
Q316 Chairman: I have to say those
of us who are English and went to Northern Ireland on a visit
were shocked to still see on one campus schools that do not talk
to each other and have no communication with each other. We were
astonished that in the 21st century that was the situation. It
is not a situation we can applaud, surely?
Ms Stannard: I would never applaud
being fortress-like in our approach to education and the experiences
that we give to our young people. I revel in the fact that we
are an ethnically diverse community.
Q317 Dr Blackman-Woods: I do not
want to distract us from the essential question, which was what
are the tools you are giving? I think you are going some way to
answer that question. But I would not like you to be suggesting,
or I hope you are not, that there are not Catholic and Anglican
schools in this country that are not predominantly Catholic and
Anglican. I have a Catholic school in my constituency which must
be 98% Catholic. There are schools here that are very highly segregated.
You may represent schools where they do have a more diversified
population within the school, but I think you have to recognise
there are some schools that are defined by faith and they are
very predominately of that faith.
Ms Stannard: I think that is a
particular demographic problem where there is a shortage of schools
and so on. Would I not also be right in saying that here in this
country we tend to live in areas where the housing, and so on,
is not defined by one faith group, and perhaps is that different
in Northern Ireland? When our children go out to play, will they
not be playing with other children from all sorts of groups, the
youth clubs they go to for socialising and so on, but on top of
that, in their work with schools, their various sporting fixtures,
the joint activities, the charitable works and various events
and so on which they are engaging, they will be different I hope.
Q318 Dr Blackman-Woods: My question
was not tell me why the situation in Northern Ireland continues,
my question to you was what specific tools and how do you shape
citizenship education to ensure that your young people will grow
up with a sense of validity for other points of view which are
very different from theirs and the respect for those individuals
who hold very different views?
Ms Stannard: We spoke much earlier
on about the fact that in all our faiths we are called to see
God in the other person. In the curriculum and the learning we
provide that must be carried through and must be a lived experience.
Dr Mukadam: In terms of what tools
we provide, we have discussed those in terms of values, skills,
communicating with fellow human beings and some of the cultures
in which communications should take place, whether it is through
literature or history, et cetera. If you look at it in terms of
experience, many well-run faith schools funded indeed by the Government
do have what is known as the Building Bridges Programmes. Indeed,
we had Stephen Twigg come to see us. We have opportunities for
young people from a faith school to go to another school and vice
versa, and they share this in drama, et cetera. Let us open it
up. There is life beyond school. We live in a world where there
is text, SMS, chat rooms, internet, et cetera, and young people
do communicate across cultures and faiths in different parts of
the world and so forth. There are ample opportunities for young
people in terms of communicating ideas, discussing, debating and
talking, but also communities are changing in that there are many
facilities—sports facilities, recreational facilities—where
young people from different faiths, of no faith and cultures,
do get together in the evenings and at weekends to enjoy some
sport or recreation. Tools are provided in terms of values, skills
and opportunities within schools and outside schools. I believe
all those put together are ensuring that young people who are
being educated in faith schools do in the fullness of time integrate
sufficiently and contribute in a very positive manner to society.
Q319 Dr Blackman-Woods: I think I
would have a series of questions, maybe not for today, about whether
you evaluate if those schemes are important in shifting ideas
and engendering some respect. I have another question which is
following on from what Stephen said earlier. It is where your
faith and your teaching comes in through citizenship into the
construction of identity. Are you starting from a concept of citizenship
that sees people as world human beings and then somewhere you
slot your faith identity into that, or are you shaping their concept
of identity and therefore citizenship, to some degree, through
your faith?
Dr Mukadam: I believe that choice
is really up to the parents to make. There are faith schools and
there are schools that do not have any faith, it is secular and
comprehensive. It is the parents who are making those choices
for the children. I believe it is only right that those choices
are available. Parents make the choices, they want a particular
choice for the child so they send them to a faith school.
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