Examination of Witnesses (Questions 320-328)
MR SIMON
GOULDEN, DR
MOHAMMED MUKADAM,
MR NICK
MCKEMEY
AND MS
OONA STANNARD
22 MAY 2006
Q320 Dr Blackman-Woods: Is this how
you teach citizenship?
Dr Mukadam: In terms of citizenship,
we have discussed that, and we made it clear that in terms of
citizenship we welcome that. I have got evidence here which goes
back to 2003, how in faith schools we teach citizenship as it
is from the National Curriculum. We have absolutely no problem
teaching it in the way it is because it goes hand in hand. Of
course we reinforce some of those values through religious and
faith identities because that is what makes it so effective. We
have no problems at all. To answer your question directly, it
is the parents who make the choice and they say, "I want
my child to be a Muslim first" and they send him to an Islamic
school, or "I want my child to be Christian first" and
they send him to a Christian school. In no way does that mean
they do not become a good citizen or they do not have a very good
knowledge, understanding and appreciation of being a good citizen.
Q321 Dr Blackman-Woods: You think
sending them to a faith school then makes the faith the defining
identity and characteristic, is that what you are depicting? That
is what you are saying parents think they are doing in sending
children to those schools?
Dr Mukadam: My understanding is
parents do have the right to have their children educated in accordance
with their own faith or religious or philosophical predictions.
Mr McKemey: The issue is actually
whether you can provide a totally neutral curriculum that is not
affected by any values whatsoever and you can teach citizenship.
There are certain things you can teach like legal responsibilities,
rights and so on. The issues about how you engage with the world
are more complex. I think the point we are probably all making
is that faith gives you a platform to do that, you are still a
free agent and you can make your decisions about how you follow
that. I think we are at pains to emphasise that we are looking
to provide the conditions for the development of citizenship as
opposed to simply teaching something which probably would not
work anyway. Whilst we take a totally supportive view towards
the non-faith schools, at the same time, I think, they have the
challenge of deciding where the grit is in their oyster in terms
of developing a notion of what it means to be a human being. What
I am saying is the concept that you can be in a totally sanitised
neutral environment which does not have any values and you can
then develop citizenship, I do not think stands up.
Q322 Chairman: It seems to me that
where you were the least comfortable was when we probed on specifics.
I do not think you liked the questions on how you treated homosexuality,
particularly, and I do not think you liked the questions on Northern
Ireland. Surely what happened, the bad experience of Northern
Ireland, must be something where any one who is involved in faith
education must say, "Surely there are lessons we should learn
from this?" We live in a society where there is an emergent
ghastly party of the extreme right that has certain views in some
of our cities in the North, the South and in London. Surely faith
education should not edge away from these difficult questions,
they should be confronting them. It seemed you were uncomfortable
at the sharp end of this debate. Is that me being unfair, Nick?
Mr McKemey: I think you are a
little bit. The notion is that faith schools will simply teach
a faith as an indoctrination process. What we are saying is in
fact they create an environment for these issues to be discussed.
It is perfectly possible for teachers within the schools to have
a particular view of their own, however to create conditions for
those things to be discussed, that is what we are saying. You
would expect that at any school. Equally, I have plenty of evidence
of very secular teachers in other schools making the lives of
children who have faith a misery. It cuts both ways. My father
came from Ulster, so I do have a little understanding of the context.
I do not think the two situations are that closely analogous because
they have other social contexts as well as what is, in fact, two
branches of the same. Also, the difference is it is not two systems
of faith schools that conflict, there are underlying social issues
that are very significant. I am not sure about that. Having said
that, of course we take cognisance of issues where versions of
faith schools, clearly perhaps in the broader sense, do not work
to the public good.
Dr Blackman-Woods: I want to come
back briefly. I was not suggesting for a moment that the two situations
were identical. What I was asking you to think about was the role
of education in supporting the vision, and how you address that
directly through your citizenship education to ensure that your
education would not support division and segregation. I think
that is how I phrased the question, and I think it is important
to have that on record because I know the complexities of Northern
Ireland. I would not suggest for a minute that the two situations
are identical, but I think there is something to be learned from
the Northern Ireland situation.
Q323 Chairman: Are we wrong in thinking
you are a little bit complacent on this?
Ms Stannard: I am not willing
to accept that, Chairman.
Q324 Chairman: It might prompt you
to come back on that.
Ms Stannard: I am concerned not
to engage in comparing and contrasting where I do not have the
knowledge or the skills. I believe we have spoken about the range
of what we are undertaking in citizenship education, where it
is objective information and where it is to do with sharing values
and upholding respect for the individual. I do not quite understand
what else it is you are implying we are uneasy about, but I will
have a go if you are more specific.
Q325 Chairman: Some of the answers
you have given to the questions, everything was for the best and
the best of all possible worlds. There were no problems that you
saw. We live in a society with some very serious challenges in
terms of communities living together, and there are some signs
that there is a separation and a segregation of some of our communities.
We were looking to you to use your expertise to say, "How
do we meet these challenges?" I got the feeling you were
saying, "What we are doing is all right, so the problem is
with the non-faith sector". Is that what you are saying?
Ms Stannard: No, definitely not.
Q326 Chairman: What are you saying
then?
Ms Stannard: I think we have all
been saying that we believe enabling parents to choose and young
people to be educated in a faith gives them a strong identity,
but that identity and those beliefs have to be well used—and
the school plays a critical role in this—to prepare such
young people to be world citizens and to be preparing for their
interactions and life alongside others who may share very different
values. Being educated about those differences, and an appreciation
of the different standpoints in society, is all part of citizenship
education.
Mr Goulden: I share Oona's view
and, I guess, my colleague's view as well. I think it is important
to reflect that citizenship, as we have said before, can also
be taught through the lens of history, and particularly the history
of the 20th century in Great Britain has not necessarily been
a beacon of respect, tolerance and understanding. I know that
when looking at the rise of fascism, for example, it is very easy,
particularly in the community that I live in, to still find first-hand
evidence of people, for example, who were present at the battle
of Cable Street in 1936, 70 years ago. The fascists were fought
by Jewish people together with trade unionists and a whole range
of people who were up against the rise of fascism. That is taught
and discussed in some detail in Jewish schools, and I have no
doubt it is taught in other schools. It is taught very much through
the viewpoint of would this, could this, happen today? How could
one work to stop it happening? What is the faith underpinning?
I am not sure that the British union of fascists had a particular
faith education, Chairman. It would be interesting to do some
research, perhaps another one of our three-year studies. Looking
at faith schooling as a bad or negative point that we should be
worried about, I would take issue with that. I genuinely believe
that looking at citizenship education with a firm underpinning
of a faith through faith schooling—of course all the other
schools in the UK are faith schools too because there is an established
church and a national faith but if we are talking about the particular
faith schooling that we are dealing with and looking at the underpinning
which allows us to discuss the diversity—the richness that
is Britain today, that can only be to the good.
Q327 Chairman: It was refreshing
to hear that, but at a session like this we are looking not to
scrutinise you in terms of just what you do, of course we want
to know that, but also we are and have been looking for best practice.
We invited you here to see if you have got the tools, the skills
and the experience to deliver citizenship education. This is why
we have been probing, not to say that we thought there was anything
wrong with faith schools, we do not start from that view at all.
We are probing to find out what your views are on a range of subjects.
Dr Mukadam: That was a very important
point you raised in terms of divisions. The fact that this Cantle
Report says there are many cities in our country where there are
pockets of communities who live parallel lives, that is reality
and a fact of life. The question we need to ask is what are the
processes that would help these young people growing up in these
communities to be able to fully integrate in the process? We believe
faith schools is one of those. I am not saying it is the answer
for everything, but it is an answer for those people who, for
perhaps very good reasons, maybe they have racism, Islamaphobia,
choose to live parallel lives. Faith schools do provide a conduit
for them to come into it, develop those skills, understanding
and so forth, so they will be able to live a more integrated life
in their future careers and so forth. Of course we are willing,
as I am sure my colleagues are, to learn where we are going wrong.
It is a process for all of us to understand what is it we can
do more effectively because it is a diverse society and we have
people who have different starting points. I believe a diverse
education system will ensure that we help all these young people
to eventually come together, to integrate and live in harmony.
In that way, faith schools do provide a very important part. We
only cater for some 3% of our total population but we do make
some contributions.
Q328 Chairman: I can assure you that
we will be scrutinising the non-faith sector in much the same
way as we have been scrutinising you today. We have really learned
a lot from this session. Thank you, Nick, Oona, Simon and Mohammed,
for a long session. We hope to remain in communication with you
because if we have other thoughts, queries and questions we will
be in touch with you. If you think there are large areas which
we may have missed, please do come back and give us some more
information.
Ms Stannard: You would like the
names of any schools where there might be first-hand evidence
for you?
Chairman: We would indeed. Thank you
very much for your evidence.
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