Examination of Witnesses (Questions 340-359)
MR NICK
JOHNSON AND
DR MARC
VERLOT
7 JUNE 2006
Q340 Jeff Ennis: How significant
is the problem of racially and ethnically segregated schools in
this country at the present time?
Mr Johnson: I think it is a large
problem and a growing problem. Partly that is because schools
will reflect the communities that they are in, where we can see
increasing patterns of segregation. We are pretty firm, in terms
of the evidence that we look at, when we think that there is this
increase in segregation residentially, but also, perhaps more
important, socially, and people are just not getting a chance
to interact with people from different backgrounds, with one another.
If that is happening in schools then that sets people up to be
segregated for life.
Q341 Jeff Ennis: Would we be able
to focus down even more, say, on blaming the current problem on
the issue of "same faith" schools exacerbating that
situation?
Mr Johnson: I think the evidence
on faith schools is slightly mixed, because some faith schools
show, while there is I suppose segregation along religious lines,
there is actually perhaps greater socioeconomic and ethnic diversity
within some faith schools. I think it is hard to come up with
an answer per se, but we would want to see that any school that
was founded around a certain ethos made sure that it was inclusive
of the wider community and not just one particular aspect of that
community.
Q342 Jeff Ennis: When I was at college
doing my teaching degree, one of the grand objectives we were
always told was that schools should reflect society. I am assuming
that is the broader general society rather than the local community,
because quite often you get a school in a particular ethnic minority
area or a certain socially grouped area which reflects just one
strand of society. I guess that is the sort of scenario that you
feel is creating problems?
Mr Johnson: Yes. Part of that
is the school and part of it is the fact that it reflects a wider
residential segregation, which is an issue. One of the things
that we are looking at doing at the Commission is, if you have
communities which are effectively residentially segregated, clearly
breaking down those patterns needs to happen over a longer-term
period, it cannot happen overnight, therefore you are looking
at the other spheres or places where those communities can interact
with people who are different from them. Clearly, schools are
an important part of that, so it is both the intake of individual
schools but also the relationship between schools in an area.
For example, work that we have seen in Oldham and Leicester, where
they have twinned schools which have been quite segregated with
schools with different cultural backgrounds, has really opened
up dialogue between different communities there and has been an
important part of opening up the society within their cities.
Q343 Jeff Ennis: I guess, to some
extent, you support what the Government is doing in terms of providing
a plethora of specialist schools, and now they have got the concept
of trust schools kicking in, which will give a lot more parental
choice and possibly more ability for children to attend schools,
to break up this sort of ghetto-type existence at the present
time?
Mr Johnson: I think we will have
some reservations about trust schools, unless they are properly
managed, managed with some strategic oversight, because there
is evidence that we have seen, and it is limited but it is the
evidence of people like Simon Burgess, looking at schools, that
some of the parental choice can increase segregation because there
is an instinct to be with people like yourself and the parents
tend to make that choice, so I think there is a concern with just
allowing pure parental choice. One of the things we do welcome
with trust schools is the proposal to have a duty on them to promote
community cohesion, and I think a way that could be done and could
be overseen is to make sure that their intake is varied and is
from the wider community. We would question why you would apply
it just to trust schools and not put the duty on every school,
but that is not something for this discussion.
Q344 Jeff Ennis: Do you have the
same concern about specialist schools or academies as you have
about trust schools?
Mr Johnson: I think, to some extent,
we do. There is emerging evidence from academies, and we are about
to look in more detail at that, that where you have choice, either
for parents solely or for where it slips into choice by the school,
you can get more segregated or more homogenous schools and we
would be concerned that the right procedures and safeguards were
put in place to make sure that did not happen. I think, overall,
this idea of having a greater range of options is a good one and
one that we would welcome because you are not trying to have a
"one size fits all" mentality which does not reflect
the diversity in the country today. I do think it needs to be
done in a framework where you are not leading towards increased
segregation, and that can be through school twinning, sharing
of sites and classes, for different areas as well.
Q345 Jeff Ennis: And building up
a federation of schools, just to support that principle?
Mr Johnson: The idea of a federation,
we have seen evidence of that working, in terms of pushing divides
between communities.
Q346 Jeff Ennis: Focusing on what
schools can do now, in terms of trying to address the problems
brought about by segregation, what can an ordinary school do to
address this particular problem?
Mr Johnson: I think, in some respects,
the first thing it has to do is make sure that it runs its own
procedures properly in regard to race equality and integration,
so that is looking at its own admissions policies, if it has a
singular one, or how it works in an area, how it recruits teachers,
making sure that its own behavioural policies within the school
are fair and balanced to all communities. Those are the basics.
It is about how you build relationships with other schools, how
you build relationships with the wider community. In the opening
questions you were talking about the increasing diversity and
I think one of the great challenges for young people growing up
in Britain today is how you deal with that diversity, because
if it is left it can be disastrous and it can lead to extremism
of all kinds. I think schools have a real obligation to look at
what they can do to open people up to different cultures and maybe
getting different faith leaders to come into the schools. I think
we can see quite a lot of examples of where schools have done
that but where they have not necessarily seen it as part of citizenship,
as such, they have done it as general community work.
Q347 Chairman: Is there a culture
of extremism coming out of particular ghettos or communities,
or am I failing to understand where you get that from?
Mr Johnson: Our fear is that extremism
is far more likely to develop in areas that are segregated.
Q348 Chairman: How does that score
against the history of Europe over the last 100 years; is that
where extremism came from, did it come from Jewish ghettos or
did it come from particular ghettos? Extremism, whether it is
Oswald Mosley or Hitler or Mussolini, did not seem to come from
ghettos, as far as I can see?
Mr Johnson: There are different
types of extremism. If we are talking about extremism that we
face today, of both a political and a religious nature, you can
see that it is most active, in political terms but also in religious
terms, in those communities which are segregated. I do not think
that necessarily we can say that was the same cause of it, going
back 100 years, but I think, if you look at it today, there are
real parallels between those communities that are most segregated
and those that are most prone to extremism.
Q349 Chairman: Is there evidence
of that?
Mr Johnson: Yes, there is evidence.
Q350 Chairman: What evidence is there?
Mr Johnson: If you look only at
the political extremism side, if you look at areas where the BNP
tends to poll well, it is in areas that score most highly on indices
of segregation.
Q351 Chairman: That might be the
sort of community that is targeted by extremists; it does not
mean to say that extremism comes from those communities. Certainly,
from my own experience in West Yorkshire, the people who caused
a great deal of the trouble in places like Dewsbury came from
outside of Dewsbury, not from the communities in Dewsbury?
Mr Johnson: Extremism manifests
itself within those communities. We would argue that they are
more prone to that exploitation, be it from inside or outside,
because of their segregated nature. It is far easier to spread
myths and misinformation and drum up people against each other
if they are not encountering other people, because they are more
likely to believe those myths.
Q352 Mr Marsden: I would like to
hone this down a bit more, if I may, on this issue of citizenship,
looking particularly at the debate about Britishness and identity.
In the written submission which you gave to the Committee you
said, and I am quoting from paragraph 15 on page 4 of the written
submission: "There must be a general agreement to a set of
values based on justice, human rights and social responsibility,
and a sense of common belonging so that all groups can feel at
home." Do you see a central role for schools in promoting
that general agreement to a set of values?
Mr Johnson: It is difficult, about
how you define "central". I think schools have a fundamental
role; so, yes.
Q353 Mr Marsden: How would that manifest
itself, in practical terms, in the curriculum?
Mr Johnson: I think in terms of
the specific citizenship curriculum, but also, as we have said
elsewhere in our submission, it is important that citizenship
is seen not as a subject on its own but as part of various other
subjects, clearly the links to religious education, history, geography,
but other subjects as well; it can be done as part of that in
terms of the classroom. Also I think there are clear ways in which
it can be done outside the classroom but within the school environment,
increasing participation of children in school councils, in other
work in the schools, also looking at ways in which you can work
with community groups to increase activity within the local community.
Q354 Mr Marsden: The former Chief
Inspector, David Bell, who is now, of course, the Permanent Secretary
in the Department, has spoken on previous occasions about the
importance of linking citizenship with other subjects in the curriculum,
notably history and geography. Is that something which the CRE
thinks would be helpful, or not helpful?
Mr Johnson: I think, very helpful.
One of the things we find from our own work on looking at race
equality is that often you will see a lot of people doing a lot
of good work which actually benefits race equality but they do
not necessarily couch it in those terms, and so it is important
to join up activities you are doing in other areas with a wider
goal. Citizenship is something that cannot be left to be just
one subject taught during the day; that is part of it, but clearly
it needs to be linked to other subjects.
Q355 Mr Marsden: Would you agree,
because again we have had quite a lot of discussion, quite a lot
of disagreement, in fact, among witnesses, as to whether citizenship
can and should be ring-fenced within the curriculum, or whether,
in fact, when we had the faith school representatives they argued,
not entirely convincingly, I thought, that citizenship values
pervaded all their courses, all the day, therefore you did not
need to have a separate chunk on citizenship, whether it was linked
to history, geography, or whatever? Do you think, in the present
circumstances, there is a danger that citizenship is slightly
being tagged onto other subjects in schools, which might not always
be, shall we say, at the top of the agenda for the head's attention,
or indeed for the school's timetable?
Dr Verlot: I think it is a bit
of a false position. I would say there was definitely a case to
make that there is a moment in the curriculum, time in the week,
where you can reflect on things, you can actually be taught a
number of insights and start thinking about strategies, how to
take them beyond the classroom. That is not to say that these
things need to stay only within that subject. I think it is very
important that from geography and from history these types of
reflections are supported by a number of ways of looking within
these disciplines. On the one hand, I think there is a point where
having time for reflecting on citizenship as a topic is very valuable,
but it needs to be supported in other areas, in humanities, in
history and geography, where they can contribute to that and make
it a more holistic approach.
Q356 Mr Marsden: If you will allow
me, Chairman, I would like just to move it on to the broader debate
about the definition of Britishness, and indeed the definition
of the values which go with that, because there have been a number
of significant public pronouncements on this, not least by the
Chancellor, Gordon Brown, in the speech that he gave at the Fabian
New Year school, earlier this year. He said that there were specific
values which could be, and should be, identified from British
history as being British and that those should be taught and,
to some extent, endorsed. Is that a view that you on the CRE would
share?
Mr Johnson: I think, to a degree.
There is a need for common values, but I think it is the way those
values manifest themselves in behaviours and in what we term a
practical identity. I think where the Britishness debate sometimes
has fallen into problems is because people have talked about values
which either are universal values and not particularly British,
or they are values or terminologies which are so open to interpretation
that everyone has been able to nod and smile and say they agree
with it, when actually they mean something very different with
it. For instance, liberty means something different, I think,
in Britain and through Britain's history than it has done in France
or in the United States. You may look at liberty as a concept,
but what is important in schools is to teach what liberty has
meant through British history particularly and what it means in
terms of Britain today and some of the challenges and issues that
concepts and values like that pose for people. That is the important
part, to be taught in schools rather than just looking at, say,
esoteric values.
Q357 Mr Marsden: Is there a danger,
and here perhaps you might reflect on the issue of whether we
are talking about British identity or British identities, that
too much focus on so-called common values actually will produce
just people signing up to a lowest common denominator which does
not reflect the diversity of British life today?
Mr Johnson: I think there is a
danger of that. What we always say is that we accept we are a
nation of multiple identities and that Britishness is one of people's
various identities. I think there is a need to make it a stronger
part of people's identities than currently it is, which is why
I think the current debate around Britishness and what it means
and what it might represent today is important, because I think
it has been a neglected part.
Q358 Mr Marsden: There is a lot of
overlap, of course, in the debate about the potential tensions
produced by a multi-ethnic society and a multi-faith society,
and I think increasingly that has been the case over the last
two to three years. To what extent do you, on the CRE, feel that
your role has been changed by this increasing focus, particularly
after 7/7 last year, on the challenges faced by Britain being
a multi-faith society, perhaps as opposed to being a multi-ethnic
one?
Mr Johnson: Certainly the work
of the CRE has changed fundamentally in recent years. I think
7/7 was a part of that, but it was changing before then from being
an organisation that was very much concerned with anti-discrimination
and eliminating outright racism, which is still a core part of
our work, the emphasis has had to shift far more from that to
the community relations side of things. What is in our mandate
is good race relations and issues of how communities get along
with one another, and faith has played an increasing role in relationships
at a community level and I think is playing an increasing role.
Q359 Mr Marsden: Does that cause
you not more difficulty but more complexity in the way in which
you approach things? In the sense that, to be blunt, if you are
trying to deal with issues of racial discrimination, for example,
against black people, I know there are all sorts of different
ethnic groups in there, in some ways that is a less complex task
than adjusting to, for example, a significant rise in Muslim consciousness
and, not the same thing, potentially Muslim fundamentalism? Which
may, of course, go across a variety of different ethnic groups,
and indeed include, as we saw from 7/7 and as we have seen from
other incidents, people who have signed up to a form of Muslim
fundamentalism who are not traditionally from that ethnic background
at all?
Mr Johnson: Yes, absolutely, I
agree with that. The complexity of our work is enormous. Partly
we are restricted because we do not have faith issues in our mandate.
Mr Marsden: Would that be helpful, if
you did?
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