Examination of Witnesses (Questions 40-59)
PHIL HOPE
MP, RT HON
BARONESS SCOTLAND
OF ASTHAL
QC, MR CHRIS
BARNHAM AND
MRS FRANCES
FLAXINGTON
18 DECEMBER 2006
Q40 Chairman: It is very nice to
hear that you do not need more money, Minister, but one of the
problems is that if you have got a Home Secretary in a department
that you do not work in, a Home Secretary banging the desk of
the Treasury saying, "I want more money to build more and
more prisons", everything that you aspire to do, whether
you have more cash or not, is going to be washed away, is it not?
What we keep hearing is if you keep filling prisons and then building
more prisons, you will not be able to meet the challenges that
you have set yourself. That is the truth, is it not? When is somebody
going to talk to the Home Secretary and say: there is no solution
to criminal justice problems in this country by just building
prisons. Is not that the truth?
Phil Hope: I am convinced that
employment and skills is one critical strand among the seven pathways
and that, if we are going to reduce reoffending and reduce the
costs of reoffending, reduce the numbers going to prison, we have
got to get that right, and that is why we are putting so much
into this.
Q41 Chairman: That is the education
view. We have got a Home Secretary who wants to keep building
prisons. Presumably we will overtake the United States in the
percentage of people we have got in prison if we really reach
some serious targets. Is that where we are going, Lady Scotland?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: No,
Chairman, that is not where we are going. We are really clear
that we do need more prison spaces at the moment. We are also
clear (and I think the Home Secretary has said it on a number
of occasions) that there are those in prison who should not ideally
be there. So if you look at some of the work that we are doing
really quite creatively, I believe, for instance in relation to
women, we have the situation where many of the women in our prisons
at the moment are multiple abusers in terms of alcohol, drugs.
They are low-level offenders, prolific offenders quite often,
but not dangerous. If you look at the breakdown of their background,
many of them were previously victims of domestic violence and/or
sexual assault. For instance, I went to Holloway two or three
months ago and I was told by the Governor there that 83% of the
women that he then had in his custody were previously victims
of sexual assault or domestic violence. The work that we are doing
in order to address victimisation of women in that sense will
have, and should have, a dramatic impact on the numbers who end
up going into prison because, if we reduce the number of victims
who do not have their needs addressed, it may be that we will
be better able to reduce the number who take to drink, drugs and
other forms of substance abuse in order to provide some sort of
panacea, which would then mean that we would have fewer main carers
being in prison which should affect our numbers going into custody
in the youth justice state. So that is clear. The work we are
doing with mental health is very important, being able to divert
those who are mentally ill out of the criminal justice system
earlier and treat them more effectively. The work that we are
doing on substance misuse generally to get a better grip, and
some of that work has been quite powerful, all of that should
enable us to better manage, and there has to be a clear view of
those who should be in prison because of the danger that they
pose to the community and the seriousness of their offending and
those who we can look at more creatively. There is an issue at
the moment, because, of course, a number of people in our community
believe that the reason we are advocating non-custodial sentences
is not because they are right and appropriate and the most effective
and efficient way of dealing with offending and to reduce it,
but simply because we have not got space in our prisons, which
is not the case. I think we have to have more prison places at
the moment to deal with the position we currently find ourselves
in. That is why we are looking to build the 8,000. But there is,
coming back to the comments I made right at the beginning, a real
challenge for us, because the 2003 Act was not supposed to be
just about increasing the opportunity to send those who are serious
and dangerous to prison, although it does; it was supposed to
be about giving the courts more flexibility, a wider menu to intervene,
to intervene earlier and divert people out of the prison system.
It is that which has not quite got into sync in the way we wanted
it. We are getting better at managing dangerous people—we
are able to keep them in custody for longer, we are able to risk
assess them more accurately and do the needs-based assessment—but
we have not shifted the agenda in relation to those who need to
not be in prison, and, therefore, the escalation that has happened
in sentencing is something that we have to look at very aggressively.
How do we get the confidence level in our sentencers to feel that
they can use the non-custodial sentences and feel sure that is
an appropriate way of dealing with it? It is about doing some
of the things we are now doing, increasing the availability of
empirical data to sentencers so they know: "What do I need
to do with this person? What works." And we have got a lot
of work to do on what works, but it is not, as you so elegantly
characterise it, Chairman, a Home Secretary who simply wants to
build more prisons. We do not want to build more prisons for prison's
sake.
Q42 Chairman: It is my job to stimulate
your answers.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: And
you are doing so successfully.
Q43 Fiona Mactaggart: We have been
talking about churning the number of people in jail. Can you tell
me what percentage of prisoners who have moved between jails in
the last year did so while they were doing an educational course?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I
have not got that figure, but I do know that is why we are looking
at introducing modular courses. One of the problems we have had
historically is that people start a course, they get to a stage
where they are doing well and they move to another prison which
may not have that course, which may not be able to continue it,
and that is why when we are doing our work we are looking at having
a modular approach which will be more easily transferred. Phil
has spoken about the opportunities there are for us to therefore
maintain continuity in that regard. Having more teachers who are
virtual, if you like, who can move from place to place, will be
very important to us. We try to avoid moving prisoners unnecessarily
wherever we can, that is always difficult, and the churn means
that they have had to be moved and the population pressures do
not make that easier. What we have tried to do is to look at the
position that we have and think about what the solutions may be.
Therefore the campus model and the modular approach which we are
evolving are more likely to be able to assist us in making sure
that we limit the potential disruption that there is.
Q44 Fiona Mactaggart: Would I be
right in saying that with the present pressure on places it is
much more likely than previously that a prisoner will be transferred
during a course?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I
do not think that I can say that. We have tried for those who
have a course and who have a longer sentence, of course, not to
move them, so the churn is happening in relation to those who
may start a course on a relatively short sentence, but I think
it is absolutely right to say it is a problem, and that is why
we are developing the campus model, that is why we are developing
the modular approach, which will mean it is more portable, not
just from prison to prison but in terms of how do we make sure
that people continue those when they are in the community. We
have got a situation where some, of course, are committing offences
whilst in the community. They may have been on a course. We know
that continuing education can be a stabilising influence in making
sure that we limit the likelihood that they will reoffend, so
maintaining a course in the community and in prison and then back
out into the community, particularly if they are not going to
do a long sentence, is going to be much more important, and we
need to get that through-put, none of which is easy.
Q45 Fiona Mactaggart: What steps
do you take to make sure that education in prison does not just
go to those who are relatively easy to educate? One of the things
that I have noticed in visiting prisoners is that in education
courses you see, unfortunately, more of the rather biddable sex-offenders
than you do of the rather wilder, drug-addicted youngsters who
have very few qualifications. What are you doing to shift that
round?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: Really
that comes back to the importance of offender management, which
we are now starting to introduce. Offender management, as you
know, is really there to do two things: firstly, to do a proper
and accurate risk assessment so we know what are the risks that
this particular offender poses; the second is an accurate needs-based
assessment, so that we have a better grip on the package of things
we need to do with, for and sometimes to offenders to make sure
that they maximise the opportunities to reduce the level of reoffending.
That gives us a much better purchase on how we introduce change
than we had before. It comes back to the seven pathways, because
even if we were to get the education and skills element sorted
in an appropriate way, we would still have difficulties with some
offenders in relation to accommodation, in relation to substance
misuse and the other pathways that we are going to have to deal
with at the same time. We need also to understand that there are
some offenders to whom interventions actually will be something
which will make things worse not better. So we have got to differentiate
between those who simply may need to be punished but who do not
have the crimogenic factors which means intervention is necessary
and those who may have multiple complex needs for whom the crimogenic
factors that we have are not being adequately addressed, and we
need to better address them. So the whole issue has to be looked
at more in the round, and we do think that the end-to-end offender
management model which will enable us to do that risk assessment
and that needs-based assessment and be able to differentiate between
those whom we have to work creatively and quite energetically
with and those who we can simply punish becomes clearer.
Q46 Fiona Mactaggart: Minister, you
are doing a thing which I think the members of this Committee
felt when we looked at the publications like the Next Steps
and so on. We have a picture of powerful aspirations but not
very much transparency about what is happening for people in the
system now. For example, in the Director General's Report we do
not get the hours of purposeful activity that used to be reported
on. It is not clear enough what is actually happening on the ground
for people. Do you have any plans to make that clearer in future
reports?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: We
do in relation to the fact that now offender management is actually
being rolled out. In the past we were waiting for it, and some
people thought it was a bit like waiting for Godot—when
will it come. It is now actually taking place on the ground, and
the good thing about it is that the probation officers and the
prison officers and those who are doing this are starting to give
us a very positive feedback, the practitioners on the ground as
well as offenders. They say, "It makes a difference. I know
more now what is expected of me, what is going to happen, how
it is going to follow through", and I agree with you that
what is really important is not just the aspiration but it is
the outcome. If we have these aspirations and we are not changing
the outcome, then we will not be delivering what we aspire to
deliver. Some of these outcomes are quite hard-edged. We want
to see how many people do get gainful employment, retain that
employment and, as a result, the level of offending is reduced.
How many more people are we going to get into accommodation which
is stable and secure? These are hard outcomes.
Q47 Chairman: But we do not see much
evidence of them in your printed material, Lady Scotland.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: We
hope that in the next year or two, as offender management starts
to roll out, we will be able to produce that empirical data which
will start to enable us to make a better assessment as to whether
this is working or not.
Q48 Fiona Mactaggart: We look forward
to seeing that, because I think it is essential to make sure that
these things are occurring. One of the things which you said,
Minister, in response to an earlier question was that the experience
of women in prison is very often one of having themselves been
victims. I am wondering what that means in terms of different
provision for women in prison. We have talked very much about
preparation for work and employment. Very often the preparation
that women need is preparation for life with their families which
they have been separated from for some time. I will never forget
the young woman in Bronzefield Prison who had come off stage,
having performed in Chicago, who grabbed me by the lapel
and said, "I am a robber right. This has done more for me
than any of that stuff you give me", and I think it was a
very powerful way of describing the contribution which things
like creative arts can give in prison. We have not had anything
of that in reading what you have said, and I am wondering whether
either of you would like to tell us something about that?
Phil Hope: I think you have put
your finger on a very important point, because the skills agenda
that I have been describing does not reflect fully the curriculum
we might expect to go on inside prisons. I have visited prisons,
and I remember meeting one young woman who was doing a painting
and decorating course and I said, "Are you hoping to get
a job afterwards using some of these skills"? "Yes",
she said, "but really I am just looking forward to going
back and decorating my daughter's nursery when I get out."
This was for her the first time she had been taught how to do
something. She was actually going to get a qualification in it,
but, even though I was wondering whether she was going to get
a job and stay straight, the thing that mattered to her most was
that she could go back to her child and give her child something
that she could not give her child before. So, quite clearly, for
different individuals there are very different motivations and
we need to tap into that. The curriculum, therefore, needs to
be not just skills for life, although if you cannot read, write
or count, then you are going to struggle in life and it is vital
that you have those skills. Yes, it might be that there is a vocational
direction and we want to get employers coming along and saying,
"These are the skills we need. I would like to have that
person trained up to work in my factory in this way", but
also there are the broader interpersonal skills and the wider
social skills. Indeed, thinking about some men who were doing
parenting courses in Wandsworth that I went to see, some of the
good work techniques and some of the learning they were doing
there was having a much profounder effect about thinking who they
were, where their life was and what they were planning to do with
themselves outside of necessarily getting a job. I think it is
right that the curriculum does embrace that much wider idea of
personal development, and creative use of the arts is one particular
aspect of that. I think we could do a lot more. A lot of prisons
have got gyms where people go and do fitness. We could think a
lot more about how all of this could add up to a package, a curriculum
for personal development, as well as the vocational skills.
Fiona Mactaggart: That is all very good,
Minister, and when we went to prisons we got loads of anecdotal
stuff about good stuff, but the hard stuff of how many hours out
of the cell a prisoner has, the hard edge, is one area in which
you do need quantitative measures, and we found it frustrating
when we did not get them. I am happy with all the anecdotal stuff
as long as it is also is combined with how many hours out, what
percentage.
Q49 Helen Jones: It is this that
we really need to find out, Minister. You gave us the figures
for the percentage of prisoners participating in educational activity,
but the question is really: what is the average number of hours
per week that they are participating?
Phil Hope: Yes, we should try
and give you that data—I understand the importance of that—but
much more important is the individual's development and the idea
of the individual learning plan, and the LSC will be collecting
information about individuals—the learning they are doing
in prison, the learning they are doing out of prison when they
are on release and the outcomes for them, both in terms of qualifications
or skills achieved but also jobs they have got, how long they
hold down that job and the impact that holding down that job has
on their reoffending.
Q50 Helen Jones: With respect, you
cannot reach a good outcome unless you are allowed out of your
cell to participate in courses, and it is quite possible for you
to give us the figures about the percentage being involved, but
it might be, and we do not know because we certainly do not have
the figures, you could have more people being involved but for
fewer hours. Do you have any figures to give the Committee on
that?
Phil Hope: My dilemma is, whilst
I understand that point (and you are not unreasonably asking for
the figure to see whether that has changed) that if we only count
learning that goes on inside the prison as that which prisoners
do when released from their cell to go and do some learning, we
are missing out on a really important part.
Q51 Chairman: What are we missing
out?
Phil Hope: We are missing out
on the fact that while they are doing the laundry, while they
are doing cooking, while they are doing cleaning, while they are
doing other things in the working day of the prisons, those could
be opportunities for learning, for skills, for gaining qualifications.
Q52 Helen Jones: They could be, but
are they?
Phil Hope: This is changing the
culture of the prison and probation system that we are describing
here. I am not saying that is going to be easy, Chairman, but
you can see what I am trying to say, as well as that which we
call learning, and people are released to do that . . . .
Q53 Helen Jones: Minister, I understand
that, but we have not got to that stage yet. That is an aspiration
that you have and one which we may well share, but what we are
trying to find out, particularly in view of the overcrowding in
our prisons, is how many hours on average people are out learning
now. Are you telling us that those figures are not available?
Phil Hope: I do not have those
figures available to me at this moment, Chairman. If we have got
them we will certainly give them to the Committee.
Q54 Fiona Mactaggart: I raised the
Director General's Report, which used to have the hours spent
in purposeful activity, which included precisely the things which
you are referring to. Those hours are no longer published and
I do not understand why. As I understand it, to get a successful
education, training and employment outcome all that is required
to tick that box is an interview arranged with the Jobcentre when
a prisoner leaves jail. If those two things are the case, it seems
to me that we are going backwards, not forward.
Phil Hope: I am still going to
argue quite closely, Chairman, that what we call "purposeful
activity" in some prisons may not be as purposeful and as
valuable in terms of that individual's skill.
Q55 Chairman: Phil, let us be honest.
You know what we are after. We are happy to have a figure for
how often is that prisoner out of the cell doing gym, laundry,
all that sort of stuff, and then, Helen's point, how many hours
out of the cell doing proper training? We are happy to take your
point that both matter, but we are quite interested to know if
overall it is only seven hours a day or a tiny number a week.
Phil Hope: The OLASS contracts
for the learning and skills that are provided in prisons are mixed
with the number of hours, so we can get this information to you.
I cannot read it out to you here and now, Chairman, but we certainly
can get you that information.
Q56 Helen Jones: Just to follow up
on that, Minister, yes, you can, but the contract for the number
of hours to be delivered is a different thing from the number
of hours that prisoners are actually participating, because you
can have a contract but you may well have, for example, a prison
so overcrowded that there are not the staff to supervise those
classes, so the two are not the same. We are trying to get to
what is actually happening on the ground as opposed to what is
contracted for. I am still not clear whether those figures are
actually available. I know you may not have them with you now,
but are they actually available?
Phil Hope: My information is,
yes, they are, and we will get them to you.
Helen Jones: That would be very helpful.
Can I move on to the next point. We have heard very often about
this idea of a seamless education system so that when someone
is studying, learning in prison, they move on to further skills
training when they come out of prison. Why is it that the NOMS
Bill does not have anything in it about education at all?
Q57 Chairman: Perhaps Frances Flaxington
could tell us about that, because she is a very widely experienced
member of the team.
Mrs Flaxington: I think we have
got a cross government reducing re-offending delivery plan and
the pathways are about supporting offender management. I believe
that the Bill deals with the introduction of offender management,
but we are confident that all the reforms that we have been putting
in place across government partnerships will integrate education,
training and employment both through the gate and as part of our
whole NOMS approach with offenders on community orders. I think
we feel it is the supporting factors that will make offender management
work; therefore we did not feel that it was necessary for the
Bill.
Q58 Helen Jones: What you are saying
to us is that, in the future, no-one should come out of prison
without a proper plan being in place, not only for their supervision,
but for their education or training. Is that correct?
Mrs Flaxington: I think what we
are saying for offender management is that it is an assessment,
both of public protection, the likelihood of reoffending, but,
importantly, an individual approach to all the needs that an offender
has to help them turn away from crime, and accommodation, employment
and education being at the absolute core of it. We see this agenda
being critical to support offender management.
Q59 Helen Jones: But is this not
also going to be affected by the churning? We heard quite a lot
this afternoon, quite rightly, about making links with local employers
and about people then being able to finish their sentence, come
out and maybe go to work for an employer; but if people are continually
being moved around prisons, if they are not in a local prison,
not where they are going to settle afterwards, that whole thing
just goes by the board, does it not?
Mrs Flaxington: I think there
is a really important message, which is about a very targeted
approach here that this individual assessment is going to identify
a critical few who are at high risk of harm, those prolific and
other priority offenders who are going to commit the most offences,
so that we are actually identifying which of the offenders we
really need to focus on, and it is a very individualised plan.
Some offenders are quite willing to go and find their own jobs;
they already have the skills. We want to identify what different
package is needed with each offender, and training is an integral
part of all that.
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