Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60-79)
PHIL HOPE
MP, RT HON
BARONESS SCOTLAND
OF ASTHAL
QC, MR CHRIS
BARNHAM AND
MRS FRANCES
FLAXINGTON
18 DECEMBER 2006
Q60 Helen Jones: I understand that,
but it is not much use making the link with the local employer
if that offender is then moved round the prison system, not because
of any reassessment of the risk they pose, but simply because
of the sheer numbers we are dealing with, and then they go to
a different part of the country and that link is broken. That
does not help prevent people reoffending in future, does it?
Mrs Flaxington: The concept behind
offender management is that that offender manager will actually
track the offender wherever they are, that we actually have a
continuity of information, of assessment, passing it through the
system, whether the offender is in prison or in the community.
Q61 Helen Jones: I understand that,
but that is not my point. You can track them, but if you have
broken the link with the employer, you have broken the very link
that might prevent them reoffending in the future, have you not?
What is the point of someone going through skills training, making
links with a local employer and then being moved round away from
that? It is great tracking them, we know what is happening to
them, but you are still not increasing their chances of getting
a job when they come out, are you?
Mrs Flaxington: I think by having
this regional offender management system, by having these regional
partnership boards, by having this assessment of skills gaps across
the country, by having this network of employers across the country,
we will be able to match people wherever they are in the country
because we are going to have a much better picture of what is
actually happening.
Q62 Helen Jones: You will not, because
the skills needs in different parts of the country are very different.
If you start a programme for someone which is matched to the needs
of a local employer, you might very well find that in another
part of the country the skills they have gained are not necessarily
in short supply, there is not an opening for them.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: Can
I say that the impression that we have got from a number of employers
is that there are what are called "soft skills", but
they are actually quite hard skills, which we need in terms of
punctuality, working with others, being able to have literacy
and numeracy skills and pick them up. Lots of employers say, "We
can give the specialist training, but we actually need those core
skills to be developed better with the staff with whom we work."
So that is issue number one. So there are certain core skills
which you can give to offenders which will enable them to be more
employable than they would otherwise be, but the most important
thing, I think, that we need to grapple with is the idea that
the moment the person comes into the criminal justice system that
needs-based assessment and that risk-assessment has to be made
at that point, because offender management is not simply about
what happens to them when they go in prison, there is an issue
about whether they should go to prison at all. If you look at
the 2003 criteria for sentencing, it is not just about punishment,
it is about the sort of intervention or sentence which will reduce
the likelihood of reoffending and rehabilitate the offender as
well. So it is punishment and those other issues. What we want
the offender manager to do is to make that risk and needs-based
assessment when the decision is made before the court about disposal
and for us to be able to retain those who are not dangerous and
who are not serious in the community so some of these issues will
be more easily and more effectively dealt with because they will
remain in situ. We then, because we are going to have an
offender manager who will stay with the offender through the process,
have an expectation (and I am not talking about aspiration but
an expectation) that each offender when sentenced will have an
offending plan. So the court will be told, "The reasons that
we say that you should not go to prison are as follows. Whilst
in prison we would expect the following to be undertaken with
this person", so that they have a sentencing plan and the
sentencing plan would be worked on more concretely in prison so
that when they come out they have got a discharge plan and you
have that continuity from the beginning to the end. That is end-to-end
offender management.
Q63 Chairman: Wonderful in theory,
Lady Scotland. Can we move on?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: It
is delivering it in practice which is very difficult. In relation
to the issues that Fiona raised in relation to women, I absolutely
agree with her that there is a model in terms of the work we are
doing for women, the reducing re-offending programme, which was
just over the nine million that we are trying to deliver through
the Women into Work Programme, which deals specifically with the
different models, and in relation to arts and the strategy Fiona
is absolutely right about that too. If you look at the Civic Alliance,
the Civic Alliance is about looking not just at accommodation
but also arts, sport and the other activities which we can use
creatively to access learning.
Chairman: We are coming to alliances
in a minute. We want to move on. Andrew.
Q64 Mr Pelling: I am sorry to look
backwards for a moment, but the experience with the OLASS when
it came to the new contracting arrangements with the pilot areas,
how were those pilots assessed and how did they feed into the
rolling out of the programme nationally? How was this able to
ensure that where we have had this roll-out there was what was
actually a short period of time?
Phil Hope: As we delivered the
pilot in the three regions we wanted to assess as they were going
along; so we were learning the lessons from how the pilots were
going so that we could apply the lessons learnt to the roll out.
We did not wait until those three regions had finished, researched
it, found out what the truth was and then commissioned the roll-out
for most of the six regions, we did the learning along the way
so that we could then roll it out in that year as we wanted to.
We are still carrying on doing those assessments and, as you can
see from the report, from the early inspection, clearly it has
made a huge difference, but there are still questions to be answered
about the exact difference of the different models, the models
in the south-west in particular compared to others, and the extent
to which you commission prison education alongside, or differently
from, education for offenders in the community, and the regional
strategy that the south-west has adopted is different from others.
I am not going to speak for too long, because I will get told
off again, but it is that learning that we are taking on now as
we go through, and, of course, in 2009 all the regions will be
recommissioned again on a three-yearly cycle and we are hoping
that the two regional test-beds that we are putting in place in
2007-08 will start further learning so that each of the OLASS
contracts we have got can develop this campus model having learnt
the lesson. So this is work in progress.
Q65 Mr Pelling: I know the Government
these days is about constant revolution, but you made reference
to the change that is taking place. The Association of Colleges
have expressed concerns about the resources that are required
to rebid in a different style. How concerned should we be about
this speed of change, and do you recognise that there is some
instability that is created for colleges and, indeed, for the
motivation of staff who are currently delivering these programmes?
Phil Hope: To be honest, I realise
the speed of change was fast, but I realise too that the level
of change that was needed to get the improvement was dramatic.
Without driving the agenda for it as hard as we did, we would
not have achieved the kind of change we have done in such a short
time. I know change is difficult, but through using that formative
evaluation method, as opposed to the summative evaluation, we
were able to learn the lessons as we progressed, and certainly,
whilst we know change is always difficult for staff as they go
through, the fact that the new providers and the new approach
to doing this has achieved such a step-change in its performance
does imply that it was the right thing to do, to drive hard.
Q66 Mr Pelling: You are changing
again. Why is it necessary to change again for 2009?
Phil Hope: We are inviting two
regions to bid to be test-bed regions for these new ideas. The
campus ideas are rooted in the OLASS model; they are another step
forward. So we are hoping the two regions who have been through
the process already will say, "Yes, we want to carry on and
change". I would not call it a permanent revolution, I would
call it building on good practice and doing so in a systemic way.
Q67 Chairman: It is all in the past
though, is it not? The last time you did five regions, you hardly
assessed them before you spread it to the rest of them.
Phil Hope: I think, as I said,
the assessment was going on as the pilots were rolling out, but
I think that the change that has happened has been successful.
I think there have been concerns about the impact on particular
individual institutions. I think they have been managed quite
carefully. At the beginning there was a key issue about communication.
I think when you are managing a process of change communication
is absolutely critical, and I think the Green Paper and now the
Next Steps document makes it very clear what we are trying
to achieve in communicating to staff in all parts of the system
why we are doing what we are doing.
Q68 Mr Pelling: In which way is this
evolution rather than revolution? Would it not have been better
have had two rounds of OLASS before moving on again?
Phil Hope: As I say, I think it
is evolution in the sense that we have taken the learning from
three pilots and applied that to all nine regions. Those nine
regions will be in place for three years delivering the new contracts
that they have agreed, but, rather than just resting on those
laurels, as it were, we have invited two of those regions to try
out the next stage building on the OLASS model into the campus
model so that by 2009, when we recommission them, we rebid, we
will have new things to put into that bidding process to build
on the success that the campus model will have shown us in the
two test-bed regions.
Mr Barnham: Could I add to that?
There are always difficult judgments to make in these change processes
about the balance between speed and going steadily. Your Committee
itself did criticise the Government for their lack of urgency
on this front when they identified a lot of issues that needed
to be dealt with in prison education, so the OLASS change was
intended to be fast, and I do not think we make any apologies
for that. It was evaluated as we went; there was action research
by independent people as we went along. There is a report that
has been published one year on of the development regions which
shows that the process overall has been a positive one. I think
the thing to say about the campus model is that we have not said
that the OLASS model is going to be thrown out and something completely
different put in its place. People have said the contracting approach
may be a bit too narrow. It is what we have got at the moment
and it is having a positive impact, but maybe we can do better.
So people have said, "Maybe you can do something slightly
different, more connected with the mainstream." We may not
need another bidding and procurement round in the same way in
2009 to replace those contracts. On the other hand, we may decide
that we do have to. So the test-bed regions are to try things
out to see if you can pull together the strands of the Green Paper
strategy, to build on what OLASS has already given us, to do something
a bit more effective and a bit more impactful. If that does not
seem better than the OLASS process, then we would have to think
very carefully about throwing that out and doing something different.
Q69 Mr Pelling: It would be even
more expensive for the colleges, would it not, if you went through
that process?
Mr Barnham: No, if we have another
OLASS bidding round it will cost them possibly what it cost them
this time round, although possibly less because they will be used
to the process. If we develop the campus model sufficiently that
we do not need a bidding process, so that we can build this into
the mainstream planning and funding that the Learning and Skills
Council does with its providers, then that would probably be less
expensive for them.
Q70 Mr Pelling: I have three more
micro-questions, which I will try to deal with quickly. Quite
often prisoners ask to be moved in the context of the educational
provision that they might have been provided. Is there any way
in which these new providers have been drawn into that, bearing
in mind that some of them are quite new to the process, and how
have they coped with that?
Phil Hope: I am not aware that
there has been any difficulty on prisoners requesting to be moved.
The important thing is if an individual offender is having difficulty
with their learning, to find out what that difficulty is, is it
inappropriate assessment that has happened, is it that the nature
of the provision is not to the quality that the prisoner was expecting?
Q71 Mr Pelling: Sometimes it can
used as an excuse to secure a move rather than real educational
need. How is that being coped with?
Phil Hope: We have not had any
evidence that is causing difficulties within the system that I
am aware of, but I am certainly happy to look at that and make
sure that it is not happening.
Q72 Mr Pelling: ESOL provision, that
is made, is it, under this provision of OLASS? English as a second
language.
Phil Hope: It is something that
we can be delivering inside prisons, yes.
Q73 Mr Pelling: Is there much under
this scheme
Phil Hope: Yes, there is.
Q74 Mr Pelling: bearing in
mind you are cutting it elsewhere.
Phil Hope: We are not cutting
it elsewhere but there is provision for prisoners who need English
as they are speaking another language in prisons.
Q75 Mr Pelling: There was quite a
change in the providers; I understand 78% was the change to the
providers through the OLASS change. Do you think that has worked
well? What regulations are in place to ensure that these providers
are performing bearing in mind, at least initially, there was
a lack of experience.
Phil Hope: I think moving over
to the LSC with the new contracting system, the fact that those
new contracts are now in place and are delivering a change as
we can see from the inspector's report, is clearly having a positive
effect. There is a monitoring regime through the contract by the
LSC of the providers to ensure that the quality continues to improve
and at the end of the three year period a summative judgment can
be made but in the meantime there are clear performance criteria
that we expect the providers to be meeting. The LSC will be monitoring
those and if they are not being met then they will be accountable
through the contract of the LSC for not doing so.
Q76 Chairman: Has my colleague Andrew
Pelling really used the wrong kind of culture in terms of permanent
revolution? Is it more Japanese shakubuku, breaking and subduing,
that you are into? How do you explain all the nice things you
have said about aspirations and so on, if you did a 360 evaluation
of the people who deliver this stuff, what sort of response would
you get? Frances, you have got a lot of experience in this and
you mostly do very short answers.
Mrs Flaxington: It is because
I am passing all the notes.
Q77 Chairman: The information that
we are getting from prison governors is that they do not like
it, they are unhappy and they are miserable. If what you say is
true everyone should be dancing in the streets, but the prison
governors do not like what is going on, certainly the Probation
Service do not like what is going on. Who does like it? Frances,
why are they not dancing in the streets? You know this area so
well.
Mrs Flaxington: First of all,
I have to say this is wholesale culture change to introduce offender
management
Q78 Chairman: I told you shakubuku,
breaking it in two and then rebuilding a good society.
Mrs Flaxington: I would also point
to the roll-out of offender management which was based on a pathfinder
in the North West and if you talk to the people on the ground
doing the work, they are very, very positive. You talk to the
offenders and they say, "For the first time I know what the
plan is in plain speaking language and I know how all these people
are trying to work together to help me". There are platitudes
about the difference.
Q79 Chairman: I think you are from
Yorkshire, are you?
Mrs Flaxington: Leeds.
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