Examination of Witnesses (Questions 220
- 239)
WEDNESDAY 31 JANUARY 2007
RT HON
JIM KNIGHT
MP AND MR
JON COLES
Q220 Chairman: Yes.
Jim Knight: We are implementing
a large amount of what Tomlinson talked about but there are obviously
one or two much talked about areas that we decided against. I
am comfortable that that is the right judgment, and I am delighted
that Mike has agreed to be one of the Diploma champions working
with schools, colleges and workplace trainers to champion the
Diplomas as we have designed them, rather than championing something
that his group wanted and that we decided to vary away from.
Q221 Chairman: We have coaxed you
into saying the word "Tomlinson", have we not?
Jim Knight: Yes!
Q222 Chairman: The reason that we
were enthusiastic in some ways about Tomlinson, all the research
on that period shows that it was the most inclusive process—yes?
Jim Knight: Yes.
Q223 Chairman: People talk about
300, 400 people in working parties that were involved in the process
and with a Minister for Schools actually attending most of the
proceedings, so it was one of the most interesting processes of
how you get to a policy.
Jim Knight: Yes.
Q224 Chairman: Many of us were impressed
by that. What you said is that it is Tomlinson minus, but how
much minus? How much of Tomlinson is in these new Diplomas?
Jim Knight: He talked about the
need for a strong core to all young people's learning, increasing
stretch and challenge at all levels, a radical transformation
of vocational pathways available to young people, and we are delivering
all of that. You have this question that rumbles on occasionally,
that I think most people now are moving on from, around the A
levels.
Q225 Chairman: But some people are
saying that this is really the stepping-stone to Tomlinson; you
actually achieve all of Tomlinson by this and then the next step.
Is that how you see it?
Jim Knight: I still see a future
for the A level. I think we have a good offer in the entitlement
in 2013, a three-pronged offer, broadly, between the traditional
vocational route with the expansion of apprenticeships; the traditional
academic route with the GCSE, A level, IB[1]
option; and then in the middle of that something which builds
on the strengths of both to offer a different form of teaching
and learning that is more grounded within the world of employment
as well as very strong academic strands so that people will still
be able to use it to go to university, and be valued by it.
Q226 Chairman: So how much of Tomlinson—10%,
20%, 100%, 50%? Come on, give me a figure.
Jim Knight: I have not done my
own assessment and, again, once I use a figure it becomes set
in stone, does it not? I would say that we are much of the way
there and we have the strengths of Tomlinson whilst hanging on
to the strengths of A level.
Q227 Chairman: I think you ought
to check out with some of your colleagues who are going around
saying 90% of Tomlinson. But you would not agree with 90%?
Jim Knight: I would rather not
be drawn on a figure; I would say that we have taken what we think
is very strong—
Q228 Chairman: We do not want a headline,
"Ministers fighting over percentages"!
Jim Knight: No, obviously not,
but we have the strengths of Tomlinson, we have Tomlinson backing
what we are doing and championing what we are doing and we also
have the strength of A level, which we are continuing to strengthen.
Chairman: Thank you for that.
Q229 Jeff Ennis: On the same theme—and
I am glad you have brought me in now, Chairman—Jim, I am
a politician, you are a politician, right?
Jim Knight: Correct.
Jeff Ennis: I cannot remember who the
Secretary of State was at the time that Tomlinson was given a
remit—it will probably be Charles Clarke—you will
probably be able to answer this question, Jim, and tell me who
it was.
Chairman: Charles Clarke and the work
was done by David Blunkett.
Q230 Jeff Ennis: Was it Charles Clarke?
Jim Knight: Charles Clarke gave
him the remit.
Q231 Jeff Ennis: Charles Clarke is
a politician as well, by the way!
Jim Knight: Correct.
Q232 Jeff Ennis: When he had the
initial discussions with Mike Tomlinson and said, "Mike,
I am going to give you a very difficult brief; here is your remit
to transform vocational education and, by the way, I am fully
behind the 14-19 Diploma agenda," and he gave him this remit
to go to, goes through all the public consultation process with
all and sundry, and he goes back to Charles Clarke and says, "Right
Charles, this is the report, I have the full support of everybody
in vocational education, I have the full support from all the
educational institutions involved in vocational education and
I have more or less the unanimous support of the Education and
Skills Select Committee, as a politician, Jim, I would have snatched
his hands off. Why did we not do that?
Jim Knight: I was not in the Department
at the time—
Q233 Jeff Ennis: No, I appreciate
that—it's the other shifters we say in Barnsley!
Jim Knight: I simply say that,
Jeff, because I cannot act as a direct witness to those discussions;
I can only presume, as we can all presume, that the decision was
made that the A level was something with which people were familiar,
that people felt confident with and that it was something that
should be retained.
Q234 Jeff Ennis: Despite all the
unanimity amongst the sector?
Jim Knight: Despite everything
that you have said, Jeff!
Q235 Chairman: The word on the street
was that you ran scared of the CBI and Digby Jones on that, but
then that is water under the bridge; he is now Arts and Skills
champion—that is an interesting change, is it not?
Jim Knight: Yes, we have some
excellent champions working with us at the Department.
Q236 Chairman: Some of us heard him
this morning. He did not seem to be quite as robust this morning,
so perhaps we can have him in front of the Committee to give him
a bit of lift!
Jim Knight: I am sure he would
be delighted!
Chairman: Moving on to aims and content
of Diplomas development process, and Gordon is going to lead us.
Q237 Mr Marsden: Minister, you will
not be surprised to know that obviously one of the things we ask
people when they come before this Committee is, how would you
describe these Diplomas? I have to say that so far we have had
a rather pick and mix collection. The Principal of Warrington
Collegiate said he thought that they should be described as vocational
and that the distinction between them and more traditional academic
ones needs to be made clear. Ken Boston was absolutely clear that
they should not be understood as vocational training and, "I
think there is unanimity amongst the Sector Skills Councils that
the fundamental purpose of this is to use a business driven or
employment drive curriculum for educational purposes; it is vocational
education not vocational training." Your Department in its
memo said, "Diplomas are a highly valued mixed theoretical
and practical route for young people," which rather brings
to mind the pop song title, Definitely, Maybe. Which is
it? I am sorry, my colleagues have just informed me, by the way,
that it is an album, not a song!
Jim Knight: It is an album.
Q238 Mr Marsden: A Manchester band!
Jim Knight: A fine Oasis album!
I guess you probably do not want to mention Manchester either!
As I said in response to the Chairman, I see it as being betwixt
the vocational and the traditional academic; that it is getting
the strengths of both. What excites me most about it is a new
form of teaching and learning that excites learners in the way
in which we have seen the beginnings through the success of the
increase in the flexibility programme, through some of the enterprise
education work that is going on in schools and through some of
the apprenticeship learning, where you engage a set of learners
of all abilities. The danger of talking about it purely as vocational
is that we have a psyche in this country which thinks that vocational
people are less able, but we have very strong evidence that people
of all abilities can be more motivated to learn if they see the
practical application of it, if they see how it works in the real
world, and a new form of teaching is developed through these Diplomas
that makes the most of that.
Q239 Mr Marsden: I accept that as
a description, but you will know, Minister, as a politician, that
it is one thing to describe something; it is another thing to
sell it.
Jim Knight: Yes.
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