Examination of Witnesses (Questions 340
- 349)
MONDAY 26 FEBRUARY 2007
PROFESSOR ROBERT
BURGESS
Q340 Paul Holmes: The Minister in
one of the earlier sessions said that arguably we should develop
an alternative to the ECTS system, an alternative European system
that we could put forward as a model, and that is what you are
talking about. Again, is the Minister being a little optimistic
or disingenuous suggesting that all of these other countries are
going to switch to a system of ours, which we have not even got
and most of our universities do not sign up to when they have
already got their own versions running?
Professor Burgess: What we need
to do is to get back to the key principles that we would want
to see in a pan-European system. What the sector is not persuaded
of is a system that looks at hours worked rather than learning
outcomes and is certainly not persuaded of a system which would
suggest by the credit rating that is awarded that there are weaknesses
in our Masters degree programmes because we know that not to be
the case given the kinds of external judgments that are made and
the kinds of ways in which British degrees are seen as of very
high standing. It is very important that we argue that case because
if we do not argue that case not only are we neglecting what I
think is very important for the learner, but on the other side
of the equation one needs to look at the advantage for higher
education in terms of this being a very important area in terms
of the financial stability of institutions given the earnings
that come from higher degree work in this country and which is
seen as very important. I do not think we should allow that to
be undermined. The other aspect is it does not seem to me appropriate
when one looks at an ECTS system where vocational education and
training is looked at in a slightly different way from more academic
training when we have spent many years in English higher education,
and I would argue, given my research background, the work we have
done on the educational system in this country, to make sure it
is not divisive in that way. All of those issues are very important
in terms of our engaging in discussion and debate on a pan-European
basis with regard to credit frameworks and credit systems.
Q341 Paul Holmes: I accept and agree
with all that you say but we are expecting the tail to wag the
dog. Are there any straws in the wind? Are there any of the 40-odd
countries which have signed up to the process saying, "Oh,
yes, we will abandon what we are doing and switch to the system
the UK are talking about developing but do not actually have yet"?
Professor Burgess: I am not necessarily
arguing that we should get people to switch to the system that
is recommended in our report. It is coming down to arguing the
principles associated with credit and talking about it at the
level of principles with regard to the objectives that countries
are wishing to deliver. If we tackle it in that way and with respect
to what we all want to see as the outcomes with regard to delivering
on major aspects of public policy, then I hope that will move
the debate forward.
Q342 Mr Chaytor: Could I pursue this
distinction between outcomes and time spent on the individual
module. Is it absolutely hard and fast, because surely in the
European system the determination of the number of hours that
trigger a certain number of credits is based on a judgment about
the body of knowledge to be covered during that module, is it
not? How is that different from the system that you are proposing?
The ECTS system does not pluck a number of hours out of the air,
does it, it is related to a body of knowledge or a set of skills?
Professor Burgess: The ECTS system
does focus on hours and workloads and the number of hours to engage
in workload rather than the learning outcome. The English system
as recommended focuses on how much has been learned by the student
and the level at which that learning has been delivered. I think
that to get hung up on the number of hours is to actually move
oneself into a cul-de-sac because we all know that people learn
at different rates and whatever rate we might arbitrarily set
in terms of the number of hours with regard to a particular unit
of credit, some students will learn at a faster rate and some
students will learn at a slower rate. The important thing is the
achievement and the level of achievement rather than the number
of hours.
Q343 Mr Chaytor: I appreciate that.
I understand the distinction you are making but what I am trying
to say is, is this actually a genuine distinction because where
does assessment come into this? You are saying that the English
system you want to see is based on outcomes but how do we know
if the student has achieved those outcomes unless there is a formal
assessment? It will not be the case that every module that is
described in the English system has assessment at the end of it,
so we do not know if the student has achieved those outcomes surely.
Professor Burgess: I would have
thought it very unusual if students are working on modules and
there is no formal assessment associated with the module.
Q344 Mr Chaytor: So my question is
are you saying that in the English system every module should
be formally assessed to prove that the learning outcomes have
been achieved?
Professor Burgess: I think there
should be some formal assessment and assessment may take many
different forms. Just from a commonsense point of view I think
most of us would feel that when engaged in learning a particular
activity, acquiring new knowledge, developing a new skill, we
do like to be tested in some kind of way in order to know what
our level of achievement is in respect of the knowledge, skills
and attributes that we are trying to develop.
Q345 Mr Chaytor: But that is not
the case at the moment, is it, and not the case in Wales, Scotland
and Northern Ireland, not every module in their credit systems
leads to a formal assessment, so there is no way of knowing whether
those students have achieved those learning outcomes.
Professor Burgess: I am not sufficiently
acquainted with every module in every institution, clearly so,
as to be able to sit here and say there is or is not formal assessment
with regard to particular aspects of learning. All I would pass
as an observation is the view that I would find it somewhat surprising
that students engage in learning and, indeed, there is no opportunity
to test out that learning in some kind of assessment context.
Q346 Mr Chaytor: Conversely, looking
at it from the other side in defining the learning outcomes that
will attract a certain number of credits, a judgment is made by
every university surely about the amount of time that is taken
to do that because that is an essential part of the course planning
process. You cannot construct a degree course where there is an
infinite number of hours that are required to achieve certain
learning outcomes.
Professor Burgess: You are absolutely
right and, indeed, in the system we are proposing 10 notional
hours is equated with one unit of credit, but of course it is
notional hours and it does not mean that every student approaching
a unit of work that will attract a particular credit will have
engaged in 10 hours of work, some will have taken longer, some
will have taken less time, it depends on the pace of the learner,
but achieving a learning outcome will give you and deliver you
one credit.
Q347 Mr Chaytor: So your typical
student would require 10 hours to achieve a certain number of
outcomes that are rewarded by one credit?
Professor Burgess: I am not sure
about the word "typical" being used because students
learn at different levels and different paces and from that point
of view the design principles that are associated with the work
of the curriculum developer are such that they have to take into
account what would be a reasonable amount of work that is required
and could be delivered in 10 hours. The 10 hours might not only
include the delivery of reading materials or essay writing, it
might involve elements of project work, it might include oral
work in classes and so on.
Q348 Mr Chaytor: Finally, can any
credit framework ever reflect the huge differences between individual
universities or even departments within universities? Is this
not a central problem to the construction of a true Credit Transfer
Framework?
Professor Burgess: I think that
where higher education institutions specify carefully what the
learning outcomes are it is possible to talk about levels of learning
that a student has achieved. One of the things with regard to
the portability of credit is that no-one ever says if you have
given a student 15 units of credit and you wish to transfer that
credit into universities X and Y, university X may say, "Yes,
that's perfectly okay, we accept that", but university Y
may say they do not accept it or only accept a proportion of the
credit. That is where the autonomy of English higher education
institutions becomes important and where the academic judgments
are made by people who are specialists in assessing students and
the appropriateness of given levels of work.
Q349 Chairman: Professor Burgess,
can I say on behalf of the Committee we have enjoyed your evidence,
we have learnt a lot. We like it when witnesses say they do not
know and have not got the evidence rather than giving us an answer
for the sake of giving us an answer. We very much appreciate your
thoughtful comments. I hope with both your background and present
position as Vice Chancellor of Leicester you will keep in touch
with the Committee.
Professor Burgess: Thank you very
much indeed.
Chairman: Thank you.
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