Examination of Witnesses (Questions 680-688)
MR STEVEN
BROOMHEAD AND
MR JOHN
KORZENIEWSKI
4 JUNE 2007
Q680 Chairman: How do you judge whether
or not it is positive, because some people say that Train to Gain
is much too narrow for many employers and they want other stuff
but they are not allowed to have it. They can have Train to Gain.
It is like the early model Ford: you can have it in any colour
you like as long as it is black. You can have training but it
must be Train to Gain and for a lot of employers it is not appropriate.
Mr Korzeniewski: I see Train to
Gain as a process. In terms of the training outcome you are quite
right; it has been focused on Level 2 with the grain of policy,
but we have seen the Level 3 pilot coming through, which obviously
is to be evaluated. In the North West we are trialling some higher
education as well through other mechanisms as part of the Train
to Gain offer. A broader offer is being tested and trialled.
Q681 Chairman: You are not elected
people. Are you not being a bit cautious because you are worried
about upsetting people? Mr Broomhead was nodding quite strongly
when I put my question. There is something really wrong with this.
If we do not turn it around fast and tell the Government there
is something really wrong the training opportunities of a lot
of people will be lost. Is that not the truth? Are you not being
a little timid?
Mr Broomhead: We agree that there
is an issue, and that is why we say that the whole thing needs
proper evaluation. We are aware of the cost to the individual
of Level 3.
Q682 Chairman: Back in your college
principal days you would have been really exercised about this,
would you not?
Mr Broomhead: Yes, I think we
would, but we have seen cycles of policy emphasis. Back in 1997
the matter on everybody's lips was the Kennedy report which was
about the celebration of lifelong learning which was not necessarily
always linked to public resources supporting qualifications. We
are now moving towards Leitch which is much more fundamentalist
and vocational. It seems as though public sector funding should
be made available only to qualifications. I think that is a very
big policy debate for Government to have, particularly for those
people with literacy and numeracy difficulties.
Mr Korzeniewski: There has been
a shift over 10 years from widening participation to the economic
mission of further education that we are seeing in practice.
Q683 Chairman: But we cannot have
both?
Mr Broomhead: I think you can
have both but it depends on what the cost will be. I imagine that
that will be an issue for Government when it looks at the total
cost of implementing Leitch. You can have both; you can have lifelong
learning embedded within workforce development strategies, but
whether or not you can continue to put public resources into what
were called non-schedule 2 courses—flower arranging, pottery
and so on—is an interesting question for the future.
Q684 Paul Holmes: To go back to the
initial question, with your pilot on Level 3 and 50% fees, is
it your advice to Government that this will not work and people
and employers will just not pay, or is it too early to say?
Mr Broomhead: It is too early
to say. I think that is why we both agree that we need to evaluate
it.
Q685 Paul Holmes: The initial take-up
was non-existent, so it cannot be too early to say, surely?
Mr Korzeniewski: I think that
over the summer we will see a media campaign to encourage employers
and individuals to consider the importance of skills. When that
comes through and it has been a continuous part of the landscape,
as it were, we will start to see differences. It is a bit like
the Gremlins campaign; it puts the issue of basic skills more
public and more firmly in people's minds. Obviously, it is a very
fast-changing environment in which we are working, but that will
be a very important part of getting across the whole skills agenda
to individuals as well as employers. That might well change the
proportion that people are prepared to pay for the benefits they
get through qualifications.
Q686 Chairman: We have enjoyed the
intellectual capacity of both of you and have learnt a lot in
this session. Is it worth our going to the North West to see it
for ourselves?
Mr Korzeniewski: Yes; you would
be very welcome.
Q687 Chairman: Can you put on some
really informative stuff for us or help in that regard?
Mr Korzeniewski: Of course we
will do that, Chairman.
Q688 Chairman: Is there anything
you want to say to the Committee before we finish?
Mr Broomhead: No, but thank you
for the opportunity.
Mr Korzeniewski: Do come to the
North West.
| 
