Examination of Witnesses (Questions 120-139)
SIR CYRIL
TAYLOR GBE AND
MS ELIZABETH
REID
23 MAY 2007
Q120 Chairman: Can we hold on that
for a moment? One of your, in a sense, supporters, Sir Peter Lampl,
supports the ideas of academies but would support more academies
but cheaper. His view has been consistently that you could have
rolled out more and more quickly if you had not gone for this
high-cost new-build model. He is usually seen as a pretty reasonable
person in this field. What would you say to that view that you
could, as Rob says, have got more, more quickly, if you had spent
less on them?
Sir Cyril Taylor: The building
policy has changed dramatically and it is now part of Building
Schools for the Future. I do not think you will be getting academies
built at very high cost any more; it just will not happen, full
stop. I still think that to turn round a really low-attaining—the
list of those 358 schools are so challenging that it requires
an enormous amount of effort and that should receive the priority.
That does not mean to say that the principle of empowering your
head teacher to be responsible, with a supportive governing body—and
of course, many local authorities are now encouraging that—that
is really the key principle but let us solve the problem of the
failing schools first.
Q121 Chairman: You are a great believer
in fair banding and random allocation. Surely, the one way to
get another 164 academies quickly is to apply fair banding and
random allocation to the grammar schools, and then you would get
rid of an anomaly that we hear from David Willetts is seen not
to have worked, has not helped social mobility.
Sir Cyril Taylor: I do not think
I am going to stray into that.
Q122 Chairman: Sir Cyril, this is
the important point. You are an independent charity. I would have
thought you must have a view on that.
Sir Cyril Taylor: This is my personal
view. It is not necessarily the view of the Trust.
Q123 Chairman: Let us ask Liz Reid.
Would you have any view on whether the passion Sir Cyril has for
fair banding and random allocation could be or should be applied
to grammar schools?
Ms Reid: Chairman, as Chief Executive
of the Trust, I try to represent the wishes of the Trust Council.
This is not a matter that has been debated in the Trust Council.
Q124 Chairman: Every charity—and
I am the chairman of several charities—has a set of guiding
principles. What are your guiding principles as a charity?
Ms Reid: Our objects?
Q125 Chairman: They are not changed
by the trustees. They are what they have when you register a charity.
Sir Cyril Taylor: We have advice
on the mission. Perhaps I should have submitted it. It is not
binding advice, we do not have to do it, but we say to our schools,
"This is the law on admissions, this is what you can do,
this is what you can't do", and it is up to them to decide
what system they want to do.
Q126 Chairman: What I am trying to
get at is, here are you, as you have acknowledged, one of the
biggest educational charities, you have 300 staff and a large
budget, but you have no view on the future of grammar schools?
Sir Cyril Taylor: I have a view.
Q127 Chairman: What is your view,
Sir Cyril?
Sir Cyril Taylor: I am not in
the business of closing highly successful schools. There are 164
schools that exist, there is a ballot procedure if local people
do not want it. Ripon had a ballot. The Ripon Grammar School...
Q128 Chairman: We do not want to
talk about the past. You are passionate about random allocation
and fair banding. Could you apply those to grammar schools?
Sir Cyril Taylor: I do not think
you could, no, because they use the 11 plus. I think I would be
opposed to more grammar schools being established but the existing
ones, especially if they do like they are doing in Reading, linking
with an under-performing school. Pate's School in Gloucestershire
that Peter Lampl went to, they are going out all over council
estates to identify very able children from socially disadvantaged
backgrounds. The big criticism of grammar schools is that their
free school meals eligibility is about 1% on a weighted average
basis compared to 15-16% for all schools. I would hope that more
grammar schools would focus on that issue.
Q129 Mr Wilson: Can I move on to
some of the other questions I was keen to ask, one of which was
again about these artificial figures that seem to have been drawn
up? One of the areas is that selection at the moment is by aptitude
and 10% of that is allowed at the moment. Why fix on a figure
of 10%? Why not 20%, 30%? Do you have any reason for that?
Sir Cyril Taylor: There is a famous
Harvard scholar, whose name escapes me, who invented the concept
of multiple intelligence. Unfortunately, when you delve into his
research, there was no evidence that there was a test which identified
aptitude as opposed to general intelligence. That is the problem,
and now specialist schools, the great majority of whom are comprehensive,
do not wish to go through a covert academic selection mechanism,
and that is probably the reason why so few of them have utilised
this right.
Q130 Mr Wilson: But there is actually
no specific reason why it should be 10% apart from the schools
not wanting to go along a selective route?
Sir Cyril Taylor: Ministers make
policies.
Q131 Mr Wilson: No, but I am asking
you for your opinion as to why you think that is the case.
Sir Cyril Taylor: If they are
not using the power at the moment, as only 6% are, there clearly
is not much of an interest in going down that route.
Q132 Mr Wilson: Another area where
there seems to be an artificial government way of controlling
it is the limited number of specialisms you can select, and you
can select by aptitude in. Why is it this small number? Why can
that not have more breadth to it as well?
Sir Cyril Taylor: They cover the
entire curriculum range.[3]
Q133 Mr Wilson: I thought there was only
about half a dozen different areas.
Sir Cyril Taylor: No, no; there
are 12.
Q134 Mr Wilson: Has it been extended
in recent years?
Sir Cyril Taylor: It has been
extended. Engineering has been added and now we have the second
specialism as well.
Q135 Mr Wilson: Do you think that
it is crucial to the overall success of the school system that
there is choice and diversity built in within the system so that
you have lots of different types of schools that parents can choose
from?
Sir Cyril Taylor: I think it is
an excellent goal but the problem with admissions is that we have
too many failing schools and some parents end up being assigned
to a school that they would not want to send their child to. This
is the social justice argument. This is why I am so passionate
about doing something about these 400 low-attaining schools.
Q136 Mr Wilson: Does not choice and
diversity in the system helped to raise the standards of schools
overall?
Sir Cyril Taylor: Not if you are
from a socially disadvantaged family that might not speak English
at home, do not know the admissions procedures, go to the local
school and that is not a very good school.
Q137 Mr Wilson: Is that not the whole
point about appointing mentors and choice advisers and that sort
of thing to help exactly those families to make the most from
the choice within the system?
Sir Cyril Taylor: The admissions
advice that we publish talks about inner and outer catchment areas,
fair banding and random allocation, and even Lord Hattersley has
come out in favour of the recommended system.
Q138 Mr Wilson: To reaffirm something
the Chairman was asking about a few moments go, you seem to support
very much the line taken by David Willetts and David Cameron that
grammar schools that are around should continue to exist, the
164.
Sir Cyril Taylor: Absolutely,
because I am against closing an outstanding school.
Q139 Mr Wilson: But you do not want
to create new ones?
Sir Cyril Taylor: No.
3 Note by witness: There are 11 different subjects
which schools wishing to bid for specialist subjects can choose.
However, schools wishing to use aptitude tests for up to 10% of
their intake can only do so in modern foreign languages, performing
arts, visual arts, physical education or sport, and, where it
existed before 2007, design and technology and ICT. Back
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