Examination of Witnesses (Questions 140-159)
MS CAROLINE
DAY, MR
BENET MIDDLETON,
DR SHOBHA
DAS AND
MS CHRIS
GRAVELL
22 NOVEMBER 2006
Q140 Mr Chaytor: Does it all take
place outside school hours, or are children using their mobiles
during school hours between lesson times to harass and bully,
in which case why let them keep their mobile phones with them
when they enter school?
Ms Gravell: Sometimes they do
it surreptitiously and the school is not necessarily aware that
they have the mobile phones.
Q141 Mr Chaytor: But if they had
to deposit their mobiles at the main office when they came to
school would that not cut out a huge opportunity for cyber bullying
during the hours of the school day?
Ms Gravell: We do not have a strong
view on that, given that some children report the need for a phone
to make them feel safe because they can call for help.
Chairman: That is a very good answer.
Q142 Fiona Mactaggart: We are also
conducting an inquiry into citizenship education. In listening
to what you said I was struck by a lack of clarity in schools
about the rights of victims of all kinds of bullying. You contrasted
the way in which victims as a result of disability were treated
in comparison to those who were victims because of race, in that
those dealing with them seemed more aware that rights came into
play in race. Is it your view that schools which have a robust
citizenship education model and recognise human rights as part
of that can deal better with bullying than other schools? Does
it make a difference?
Ms Gravell: I think it does. There
is recent evidence from the programme run under UNICEF about rights
education in schools that it really does help. Anything that increases
the reasons for mutual respect, as Sir Alan Steer called it, will
help, and a rights-based citizenship programme will obviously
be useful in that regard.
Dr Das: I agree. I think that
where there is an ethos about promoting citizenship as a good
thing for the future that is something that we see generally as
a more consistent and firm approach to bullying. I think that
in schools where that is a strong focus they are quite creative
in terms of how they handle bullying. It is not a stick-based
approach. They do things to keep pupils safe. To go back to a
point made earlier, it is not about excluding victims to make
them feel safer; it is about giving them techniques like red and
yellow cards to flag for the future when they are feeling unsafe.
There is an aspect where other pupils in the classroom are also
encouraged to watch out for the safety of their colleagues. There
is a better ethos where there is better citizenship education.
Q143 Fiona Mactaggart: Does it reach
children with autism and other disorders?
Mr Middleton: I do not know specifically
about the issue of citizenship studies, but certainly we would
want to see approaches to bullying going beyond just a bullying
policy—something flexed in such a way that the whole school
deals with issues. When schools have been thinking about their
duties under the disability equality legislation they need to
think about how they reflect bullying within those policies but
also perhaps how to work with whole classes in dealing with bullying,
particularly in relation to autism. We have found that things
like circles of friends where we get a group of people to think
about how it might work with and support the child are very effective.
I think that to broaden it beyond bullying and thinking about
how the school approaches it right across the board, particularly
in relation to disability but I am sure also in relation to other
areas of discrimination, is absolutely critical.
Ms Day: When we were doing our
research a lot of the young people asked for better use of citizenship
or PSHE lessons. They felt that a lot of topics covered, especially
those to do with sexuality or race, were always regarded as "the
other". It was never directed at them as a group; it was
always an issue covered outside that classroom; it would always
be somebody else who was gay and this might happen, but it was
never brought down to the young people in that room. It brought
about the feeling that it did not really happen there and was
not something that they needed to worry about; it would always
be an outside issue. They felt that particularly in relation to
homophobia and sexuality the issues in schools were often tiptoed
around quite a lot and schools needed to address them a bit more
head on. People were not worried about that and they felt that
it would not encourage more bullying behaviour. One young person
said that teachers were scared because they thought it might make
young people gay if they made them more aware of their options
and it was still choice rather than something in you from the
start. They felt that if that could be brought out in schools
and children could understand that the person sitting next to
them was first and foremost their friend, not just somebody on
the street who is gay or black or whatever, it would bring it
home that much more. They also thought that in that way they could
participate far more in it and wanted a greater role in what was
being said in policies and within lessons. It was not just what
they were being told; they wanted to look at it themselves, have
their own groups, be able to address it and talk to each other
and work out what is best for them rather than just have a policy
that assumes what might be best for them.
Q144 Mr Carswell: Do you agree that
children with special needs are quite often more vulnerable to
bullying?
Mr Middleton: That is so specifically
with autism because it is about the way someone interacts with
others.
Q145 Mr Carswell: Do you say that
children with special needs in mainstream schools are particularly
vulnerable as compared with those who perhaps might be in special
schools?
Mr Middleton: I do not think the
research is clear on that. Clearly, bullying takes place in all
environments. Our study showed a slightly lower level of bullying
in special schools, but clearly bullying takes place in all environments.
Q146 Mr Carswell: What more can be
done? We looked at a different report. Some parents quite rightly
choose to put their children into mainstream schools. Do you think
that this has created a specific challenge and if we are to have
successful policies we need to do more?
Mr Middleton: I certainly do not
think that that should be driven by bullying. If we talk about
segregation on the grounds of race because of bullying people
would be rightly horrified, but sometimes it is suggested as a
response to disability bullying which highlights the distinctions
that are made. We would very much take the point that it is the
right school for every child, so you start with the child and
the child's needs. Some children will do much better if they are
included or supported in mainstream schooling and some may be
better off in special schools. It is about the best environment
for the child. How do you support the child in that environment,
whether it be dealing with bullying or any other barriers that
the child might face in engaging in that educational setting.
Q147 Helen Jones: I am anxious we
also recognise that among a lot of young people, certainly the
ones that I meet, there is a far greater degree of tolerance in
many areas than there is among adults. I do not think we should
lose sight of that. My question is: how do you build on that?
We talk about bullying in relation to school discipline policies
in general. Have you come across any evidence, as opposed to a
general feeling, that bullying is more widespread in schools that
do not have thorough discipline policies and a culture of respect,
or is it simply hidden in some schools because they do not want
to admit that they have it? In your experience is it also the
case that if there is bullying it arises throughout the spectrum
and there can be bullying of staff as well as children? All of
us have a general feeling about it, but is there any concrete
evidence?
Ms Gravell: In September the Guardian
reported a survey of black teachers who faced bullying and racism
in staff rooms. There is also an organisation called the UK National
Workplace Bullying Helpline which says that teachers, lecturers
and employees in education are the single largest group of callers.
Obviously, it is going on.
Q148 Helen Jones: With the experience
of the heads under whom I have worked I can well believe that.
Ms Gravell: We know that there
are lots of cases of harassment and workplace bullying among the
NUT membership that are brought to court. It is a problem throughout.
I suppose that in a very enclosed environment these problems arise.
Q149 Helen Jones: All of us share
that feeling. I am trying to see whether there are any hard statistics
on the point.
Ms Gravell: Those are two examples
of which I have experience. There are other reports of problems
among staff as well as pupils in schools.
Q150 Stephen Williams: The first
matter on which I want to focus is the definition of bullying.
There appears to be some tension among the witnesses as to whether
or not we need perhaps a statutory definition of bullying. Mr
Middleton said he felt that bullying should just have a general
definition and the school should deal with all types of bullying,
whereas Dr Das felt that perhaps there needed to be specific policies
for specific types of bullying. Do we need a statutory definition
of bullying?
Mr Middleton: My point was not
concerned so much with the definition of bullying as the guidance
being offered to schools on how to deal with it and the fact that
distinctions were made by schools in their response to bullying
based on sexism, race and disability. Therefore, in terms of the
definition I have no specific comment. My point was about the
guidance rather than the definition.
Ms Day: When we talk about a definition
it is important to make sure that young people and adults mean
the same thing and that we have an understanding of language.
One matter that we have noticed is that often young people mean
very different things by what they say, explain things in different
ways and have very different views on what bullying means to them.
With it becoming quite a well used word in recent years, it is
about defining what we are going to talk about as bullying. Language
has evolved in a lot of areas and young people are very much aware
of it. In particular, they use the word "gay" to mean
"stupid" or "daft"—for example, "You
wear gay trainers." "Bullying" is everything from
a bit of pushing and shoving in the playground or harmless teasing
right up to the extreme of physical and verbal violence. I think
it is quite important to consult with young people so that they
are on the same track as ourselves in understanding bullying to
mean what we understand it to mean.
Q151 Stephen Williams: In the guidelines
should there be strict definitions of different types of bullying,
or how much should be left to the actual school to evolve its
own policy on bullying?
Dr Das: We find that often schools
do not struggle to identify an incident of bullying. That does
not seem to be a problem. For us the problem is one of identifying
incidents of racist bullying. They can see something as bullying
easily enough but they do not want to put the stamp of prejudice
on it because somehow they feel that it makes them look bad.
Q152 Stephen Williams: Is there not
a statutory duty under the Race Relations Act to report a racist
incident in a school?
Dr Das: Yes, but it does not happen.
Schools are very hesitant to report it. They feel that they are
black-listed for reporting racist incidents, so a lot of the work
that we have done in the areas in which we have been engaged has
been to say that it is good practice to report and that the purpose
of reporting is to make sure that they get the support they need.
Q153 Stephen Williams: The Chairman
mentioned that this was Anti-Bullying Week and the various groups
within that coalition are focusing on bystanders. I suppose that
"people who witness bullying" would be a better way
to put it. All of us can remember witnessing bullying in school.
We have the statistic that 85% of children have seen someone being
bullied, but there seems to be a difference among the various
organisations as to how many children then try to do something
about it either by intervening directly or reporting it to a teacher.
How can a school have a policy on what it might expect other children
to do when they see bullying, or is it something on which one
cannot really have a policy?
Ms Gravell: One certainly can
have a policy on it. I think that a number of schools were aware
of the report of the Children's Commissioner published on Monday.
That showed at least one school where there was a very well developed
group of pupils which was like a bullying appeal group; that is,
if other pupils had a problem as bystanders they could be backed
up by others. They were not by any means anti-bullying police
but they were very strong in supporting pupils who needed to do
something about behaviour in those groups.
Dr Das: I am not sure that we
can address the issue of bystanders by policies. I think that
it has to be more about promoting a culture where people take
responsibility for things that they see. I go back to the point
I made earlier. A lot of children suffer bullying not just in
school and in that regulated environment but also around the home.
Encouragement should be given to young people to say that when
they see something they have a responsibility and duty to intervene
in some way. Talk them through personal safety issues because
one does not want young people getting knifed for intervening
in bullying. It must be that level of change which makes a significant
difference.
Q154 Stephen Williams: What mechanisms
do you think schools should have in place in order to encourage
children to report bullying or to intervene in bullying cases?
Dr Das: Probably the solution
is the one raised earlier by Fiona Mactaggart; that is, the promotion
and highlighting of the citizenship education ethos.
Ms Gravell: I think there must
be very flexible ways for children to do it, so there may be anonymised
bully boxes, or perhaps they can talk to other pupils and report
it via that route, but it is not just a question of going to a
nominated teacher in a well-publicised way so that everybody can
see you doing it. If one has a school that is good at involving
pupils it may never need to get as far as teachers. It is dreadful
but the research of the Children's Commissioner has shown that
when reporting bullying and whether or not it is resolved pupils
say that teachers are the most ineffective route to pursue, which
is rather sad. If one can develop a culture among pupils whereby
they help each other it is probably more effective than snitching
to an adult.
Ms Day: Peer pressure is a huge
factor in these situations. A lot of the young people with whom
we have worked have said how difficult it is, either because one
ends up siding with the bully because one is pulled into that
group or because one is just too scared to do anything about it.
Although they recognise that most bullying happens in school it
is not just teachers and pupils who are there; there is a host
of other support staff. The key people they mention are dinner
ladies. Seeing that bullying often happens at break times and
lunch times, they say support staff such as dinner ladies need
to be on board to be aware of these policies, not to be prejudiced
themselves, but to keep a second eye out be aware of what is going
on and, if they think that something is happening, to act on it.
It is a double-barrelled approach to it.
Dr Das: Some of the best examples
that we have seen of the sustainable targeting of bullying and
the elimination or reduction in the number of cases arise where
schools have trained pupils in peer mediation. That is another
area where pupils are encouraged to take responsibility and also
have the skills to do that.
Mr Middleton: In the case of autism
this often goes to the heart of how one deals with it. Often a
child with autism will not appreciate that he or she is being
bullied. Such a child will not know the social rules. That can
be quite extreme and can range from a child who is told by another
boy that he will be hit every day so he believes that that is
the rule to much more subtle types of bullying where the child
may be led into quite inappropriate behaviour. Encouraging other
children to report and support that process is absolutely critical
particularly in the case of autism which is about social interaction.
Q155 Stephen Williams: I believe
that yesterday the Secretary of State announced that there would
be government money available for mentoring. We have not studied
in depth what that means in practice. Do any of the witnesses
have viewpoints about whether or not that may be effective? It
seems to be encouraging people to have a greater role in tackling
bullying.
Ms Day: Peer mentoring was mentioned
frequently by young people whom we support. It is something that
they feel they can turn to and it is a good half-way house between
themselves and teachers. Some of the schools with which we work
also have learning mentors; they can also keep an ear open all
the time and are people to whom young people can report.
Stephen Williams: Mention was made of
our inquiry into citizenship. The Committee visited a school in
Somerset which had a fairly comprehensive programme of involvement
by pupils and groups representing everything under the sun. Curiously,
they did not have a group to deal with bullying. I asked several
children about it and they said that because people were involved
in so many things they did not believe that there was such a problem
in the school. That was the viewpoint of the children and it might
be an exception. Do you have any evidence about the effectiveness
of school councils and people's involvement in tackling bullying?
Q156 Chairman: That really takes
us into good practice which we cover in the third section. That
is a very important point. Looking at the evidence the Committee
has received, a lot of us visit schools. I certainly visit at
least one school a week. Perhaps I go only to good ones, but those
that I have visited have a clear, coherent anti-bullying policy
which involves staff and so on. It seems to work extremely well.
At the same time, the polls and research to which you allude suggest
that there is a very real problem out there. There is almost a
disjunction between what we have seen in a school. Perhaps the
Select Committee visits only good schools and it should make random
raids on them. A lot of the schools that you go to must have very
good practice.
Ms Gravell: Unfortunately, we
hear about poor practice mostly from the advice lines because
we are dealing with parents who encounter problems. We are certainly
aware of models of good practice out there and that it can be
done. Our whole philosophy is that schools can make a difference
and make things a lot fairer and safer for children. We would
not be in this job if we did not think there was hope at the end
of the tunnel.
Jeff Ennis: Before we go to good practice,
I should like to go back to the type of bullying. Normally, when
one thinks about bullying one thinks of it in a secondary rather
than primary school setting. Is that still very much the case?
Is most of the bullying still taking place in secondary schools,
or is it becoming a greater issue in primary schools?
Q157 Chairman: All of the witnesses
are nodding.
Mr Middleton: I do not have exact
figures, but we are picking it up right across the school system.
The problem is not confined to secondary schools. We are supporting
parents and children who are being bullied at all ages.
Ms Day: We have evidence to show
that sometimes young people feel it is worse in primary schools
than in secondary schools, but they have also identified that
the worst period is the transition between the two. Primary school
can be quite a contained and secure environment. You have been
there for a long time and you know all the people; you know your
teacher very well. Moving into that much larger school where you
are at the bottom of the pecking order, with all the different
issues which go with that, is a real strain.
Q158 Jeff Ennis: Is there any difference
in the main types of bullying in the primary as opposed to the
secondary school setting, or are they very similar?
Dr Das: We see a difference. For
us the split is generally half and half; it varies from year to
year, but we see as much in primary as in secondary and it is
across the age ranges in primary, so it is not clustered towards
the top end. We find that a lot of the primary school bullying
tends to take the form of isolation, for example, "We don't
want to play with you because you're black", or verbal abuse,
or mockery of culture. In secondary schools it tends to become
a little more physical; there is more aggression and violence.
Q159 Jeff Ennis: Moving to good practice,
who should decide what anti-bullying programmes are used? Should
it be the DfES, the local authority or the school itself?
Mr Middleton: We are running a
campaign at the moment called Make School Make Sense. We have
asked people to nominate school heroes.
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