Examination of Witnesses (Questions 173-179)
MR STEVE
SINNOTT AND
PROFESSOR PETER
K SMITH
22 NOVEMBER 2006
Q173 Chairman: I welcome to our deliberations
Professor Peter Smith and Steve Sinnott. You have had the benefit
of listening to the previous set of witnesses. As a Select Committee
we are here to learn. It is a privilege to have with us Prof Smith
given his experience and range of research. We also have with
us Steve Sinnott who represents the only teacher union that responded
to our call for evidence. We hope that you can help us with our
inquiry. I will give each of you three minutes to encapsulate
what you want to tell the Committee and then we shall go to our
questions. Let us start with Prof Smith.
Professor Smith: Earlier the Chairman
said that he was a bit depressed about this matter. First, I think
that there are two encouraging features. One is that internationally
we can be fairly proud of our record in terms of what we have
been doing about school bullying. Norway, Sweden, the UK and Australia
are probably the countries that are doing the most in this area.
I think that it is having an effect. Earlier someone said that
in the main the incidence of bullying is going down, if only slowly.
It is not certain because the evidence base is not perfect, but
there are a good many factors to indicate that rates of bullying
have been going down. There is, however, still plenty to tackle.
I take that as an optimistic sign that what we have been doing
over the past 10 to 12 years has had some effect, and it would
be very disappointing if that was not so. But we face new challenges.
Cyber bullying is a new challenge and is probably going up. During
the previous session someone mentioned the immigration of new
peoples into communities which may also make some things more
difficult. There is plenty to do. In the previous session the
Committee suggested that perhaps people were not being sufficiently
forward in saying what should be done, but in a way we do not
yet have the evidence base for that. Reading was given as an example,
but in the past mistakes were made by over-enthusiasm to pursue
certain kinds of teaching reading methods without perhaps the
right evidence base. On the whole, I think that we have been doing
the right thing which is to use a broad variety of approaches
to see how they work. As yet, we do not have a magic bullet or
pill to solve it, but a lot of things help. We really need more
research and a better evidence base, especially in deciding what
kinds of sanctions work best and in what situations and what peer
support schemes work best. Some of these matters I mention in
my submission.
Q174 Chairman: Are you saying that
the incidence of bullying is going down? I ask you the question
again because I note that some members of the press corps have
just come into the room.
Professor Smith: The press likes
stories about how bullying is getting worse, but the evidence
from repeated surveys of the same type in the same place—I
have cited Leicestershire as the best example—is that over
the past four or five years it has been going down slowly year
by year.
Q175 Chairman: And we are doing better
than a lot of other countries?
Professor Smith: We are doing
better than many other countries, but obviously there is no room
for complacency.
Q176 Chairman: I hope that I get
brownie points from the press for that.
Mr Sinnott: The Chairman earns
brownie points from me if he repeats his comments about the National
Union of Teachers.
Q177 Chairman: I said that you are
the only teacher union that responded. Head teachers responded.
Mr Sinnott: I look forward to
the day when on behalf of teachers you receive only one such piece
of evidence. I am ever the optimist in these matters. For us the
first priority of any school is to ensure that it deals with the
welfare of youngsters. From all of our own evidence and a search
of the literature what youngsters want is a school in which they
feel safe. What we do know is that in such an environment they
will be protected and will always learn better. This is an educational
issue as well as a matter to do with the welfare of youngsters.
I believe that at the moment we have a real opportunity with the
development of thinking around a personalisation agenda for youngsters
to take forward that issue and contribute to the task of properly
and effectively dealing with bullying. We are very supportive
of that personalisation agenda. I hope that this is dealt with
properly in Christine Gilbert's report. There may be evidence
of a decline in bullying amongst youngsters. I heard Professor
Smith's earlier comment. Just occasionally in the evidence in
the previous session reference was made to the bullying of teaching
staff. A few years ago I think we would have had no calls to us
about the bullying and harassment of teachers within schools,
but we now have such calls. Evidence has been submitted to the
Select Committee from the Teacher Support Network on bullying
among teachers. There is also some statistical evidence on that.
We shall be producing a report on Friday, which we have already
promised to send to the Select Committee, on sexist bullying in
schools. That is a neglected area in relation to teachers. When
we submit that evidence the Committee will see in very graphic
terms some terrible stories of harassment of teachers. In relation
to the type of school environment that is conducive to dealing
properly with any bullying that takes place, whether it is by
head teachers of teachers or teachers against teachers, youngster
against youngster or teachers behaving inappropriately with youngsters,
the right setting is one in which there is a welcoming of all
points of view within the school community. That includes the
views of teachers, parents and the wider school community and
a real student/pupil voice. There is clear evidence that in those
circumstances one is better able to deal effectively with bullying.
Q178 Chairman: Professor Smith, when
I listened to the previous witnesses I recalled that at one stage
I was a social scientist, or tried to be. What research has been
done on group behaviour and why bullying takes place? Most of
us will remember the novel or film Lord of the Flies where
a group of boys descends into terrible violence. Why is it sociologically
that if one looks at a group of children that is a very common
aspect? I refer not just to group behaviour but picking on a vulnerable
member of that group, for whatever reason? Why does this happen?
If we understand why it happens presumably we can do something
about it.
Professor Smith: Bullying is often
but not always a group phenomenon. Sometimes it is just one person
picking on another, but we know that half the time, or perhaps
more, it is done in a group in the sense that there may be several
people doing the bullying and there will be an audience as well.
Some people will be around who, even if they do not join in, may
be laughing or encouraging it. There are some people around who
may actually be what are called defenders and may try to stop
the bullying by telling the bullies to stop, getting help or at
least comforting the victim afterwards. I think that an important
part of peer support schemes is to encourage people to be defenders,
and that is what a good school ethos should be doing, that is,
empowering people to challenge bullying. Why bullying happens
is a big topic. We should not mythologise bullies. Bullying is
an abuse of power. One is in a powerful situation because one
is stronger; one has one's mates there against a single child,
or something like that, or one feels psychologically more confident.
The abuse of power can bring gains at least in the short term.
The bully may extort money or belongings from someone, or it may
be he seeks prestige within his peer group. He or she appears
to be a tough person and has shown that he is more powerful than
someone he can torment. In particular, if the victim is perhaps
someone who is not strongly liked in the peer group that group
may think that that is quite funny and approve it in the wrong
climate. Therefore, there are temptations to bully. Why does one
give in to those temptations? It could be because of the home
background. Perhaps that kind of behaviour has been modelled at
home in some way or maybe the bully has been bullied at home,
or perhaps that is the kind of behaviour that he has experienced.
In particular, in secondary schools that is a way of getting status
amongst one's peers, especially in adolescence. We have a lot
of evidence that it is most difficult to work on attitudes to
bullying and so on at about the 13, 14 or 15-year period—the
mid-adolescence stage—when peer groups and status among
peers are very important. One is a bit more distant from adults;
one is in the phase of distancing oneself from adults, teachers
and so on. That is when bullying children may earn the most kudos,
as it were, from the peer group.
Q179 Chairman: Mr Sinnott, from your
vantage point as general secretary of a very large teacher union,
do you pick up on outstanding good practice that you think can
be rolled out and provide an answer to the problem of bullying?
Mr Sinnott: I believe that there
are very good examples of schools that deal effectively with this
issue or are creating the circumstances in which bullying is least
likely to rear its head. I think the examples are in schools in
which people are properly involved. I am referring to schools
which have effective and functioning policies which are not just
policies on paper but properly identify the whole range of areas
in which youngsters can suffer bullying because of issues of equality
and correctly specify individually a whole range of equality issues,
including disability, lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender issues
and issues to do with poverty. I am referring to all of those
issues properly identified in policies which are monitored and
schools which audit those matters. In those schools you find that
there is least likelihood of a problem. Some really imaginative
ideas have been stimulated by teachers or youngsters. Mr Ennis
dealt with the issue of primary schools. Some of the measures,
such as the creation in schools of buddies or areas where somebody
who feels he needs a friend can go and other youngsters can go,
are extremely effective in creating a particular culture for all
youngsters.
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