Examination of Witnesses (Questions 70-79)
RT HON
IAN MCCARTNEY,
MP, MR SCOTT
WIGHTMAN AND
MR FERGUS
AULD
21 FEBRUARY 2007
Q70 Chairman: Good afternoon, Minister.
It is a pleasure to have you here this afternoon in what is the
final evidence session of this inquiry, indeed this series of
inquiries of the Sub-Committee, and I think at some point, if
we have not already, we need to welcome some Moldovian MPs coming
to listen to our evidence this afternoon. I think you have a statement
to start off with, so would you like to give us that.
Mr McCartney: Thank you, Mr Challen.
Firstly, I would like to introduce my co-witnesses, Scott Wightman,
Director of Global and Economic Issues at the Foreign Office,
and Fergus Auld who is the Team Leader for Climate and Security
and, like you, I welcome our colleagues from Moldovia and, depending
on the questions you ask me, I might ask them to substitute for
me! First of all, I would like to start by saying that I genuinely
welcome the Committee's inquiry and I hope that, after your report,
we can work together on issues in terms of what you recommend,
though I will not pre-empt that, but I genuinely want to work
with you as a Minister in the Foreign Office. My friend of course,
the Foreign Secretary, and I both recognise that the Foreign Office
can play a unique role through its network of embassies and high
commissions to forward the Government's agenda for the environment,
particularly on climate security. Sustainable development is central
to our foreign policy. It is not only a strategic priority in
its own right, but it also underpins the FCO's other strategic
priorities. For example, environmental degradation can drive migration
or the impacts of climate change can threaten human security.
In the last few months, I have seen at first hand myself environmental
degradation threatening prosperity in places like Hong Kong and
the impacts of climate change threatening human security in the
Pacific islands through sea-level rises. Furthermore, Mr Chairman,
as I am sure your Committee is aware, in one of her first actions
as Foreign Secretary, Mrs Beckett designated climate security
and the transition to a low-carbon economy as a new strategic
international priority for the United Kingdom, and appointed a
Special Representative for Climate Change. The Prime Minister
established climate security as a core British interest and put
the UK in a position to lead a rapid transition to a global low-carbon
economy. The commitment to climate security runs right through
the Government. The Government's strategic aim is to avoid dangerous
climate change by stabilising atmospheric concentrations of greenhouse
gases. This is a highly ambitious and long-term outcome. To achieve
this, we need to: bring about a step change in global investment
in the low-carbon technologies to enable a transition to a low-carbon
economy, including through an effective carbon market; build resilience
through managing impacts and promoting adaptation to climate change;
and secure international agreement to a realistic, robust, durable
and fair framework of commitments to reduce CO2 emissions for
the post-2012 period. It will be impossible to achieve this objective
without much wider acceptance of the scale and the urgency of
the challenge, matched by a major increase in international ambition.
Our own efforts are, therefore, directed at galvanising international
collective action by shifting global attitudes towards climate
change. Our recent activities show how the Foreign Office has
focused on a broad range of sustainable development work. We have
supported the development of the Stern Review on the economics
of climate change and amplified its global impact. While I was
in New Zealand and Australia immediately after the report's launch,
I delivered the key messages from the Stern Review, not just to
my counterparts in government, but other political parties, the
business community and academia as well as through the media,
trying to get to the ordinary citizen of Australia and New Zealand.
It was interesting to note, not because of my contribution, how
quickly the Stern Review has had a tangible impact on the political
debate in Australia and in New Zealand from a political perspective
and a business perspective. We have persuaded the past and present
United Nations Secretary General to describe climate change as
an "all-encompassing threat" in speeches and in articles,
and we are trying to mobilise United Nations machinery beyond
the environmental sphere. We have secured a high-level EU engagement
on climate and energy, as demonstrated at the informal summit
in Lahti and in the European Commission's recent Strategic Energy
Review. We have persuaded the Commission to adopt a robust position
on national allocation plans for Phase II of the European Union's
Emissions Trading Scheme, and we are working with Germany to put
climate change at the centre of the G8 and European Union Presidencies.
We have launched another sustainable development dialogue with
Mexico in October and we are preparing for the 15th UN Commission
for Sustainable Development to be held in New York. We have helped
prepare, and participated in, the first ministerial meeting under
the sustainable development dialogue and the structured dialogue
on climate change between the Government and the Government of
India. In addition to that and in parallel with that, I attended,
and participated in, the World Economic Forum in New Delhi on
this issue, addressing the world's business community and, in
particular, engaging businesses on the Indian Sub-Continent. We
have also just published our Sustainable Development Action Plan
which has commitments which focus on areas where the Foreign Office
can add the most value; this includes activities to raise awareness
of sustainable development across the Department and to ensure
that it is embedded in all our work. I will complete it at that
point, so you can challenge me and question me and I hope that
myself, Mr Wightman and Mr Auld will be able to respond positively
and in a way which helps you with your inquiry.
Q71 Chairman: Thank you very much
for that statement. It does reflect, I think, the very clear and
robust commitment made by the Foreign Secretary in the publication
in January for the Sustainable Development Action Plan, the commitment
to protect the environment. We have had evidence from witnesses
who have felt that perhaps there was still a lack of knowledge
within the FCO about the importance of the environment in meeting
our goals on security and prosperity. Would you accept that a
lot more still needs to be done within the Department to ensure
that sustainable development permeates all levels in the Department?
Mr McCartney: Indeed, and that
is why it is essential to start training both in the Department
at the UK base and also throughout our embassies and our high
commissions; this has become a priority area. Indeed, as we speak
today, our attaches are here in London and they are having a programme
of training to develop their skills and knowledge not just on
the intellectual issues, but on how they can actually at posts
co-ordinate, on our behalf, the priorities that the Government
has set itself, not just Foreign Office priorities, but the ongoing
priorities and the work that is done in the DTI, Defra, et cetera.
We have already appointed 100 sustainable development attaches,
and some of these, though not all, I do not want to mislead the
Committee, but we have now got 100 highly trained people at posts
with responsibility for this area. Some are part-time with other
issues and some are full-time, but they have all got a skill not
just to deal with the issue in general, but actually to join up
all the other issues that need to be developed in terms of a sustainable
development approach. We have also put in place a significant
training programme to ensure that, at every level, whether it
is an ambassador or whether it is someone who trains in inward
investment, they have all got a serious knowledge of the subject
and understanding and will operate effectively on our behalf.
Q72 Chairman: The Sustainable Development
Action Plan does contain some very welcome proposals on climate
change and illegal logging, for example, but some of our witnesses
amongst the NGOs are concerned that there seems to be a lack of
weight put on the need to protect biodiversity. Would you say
that biodiversity perhaps now is less of a priority within the
FCO?
Mr McCartney: The short answer
to that is no, and it might be helpful, in answering that, to
say, for example, that the Action Plan has been adopted at all
levels of the FCO and there is no question mark, it is not the
case, it has been signed off by Martin McDonnelly, the Director
General, myself and the Foreign Secretary, and all heads of departments,
ambassadors, high commissioners and attaches in the countries
are now working to the Action Plan. We held an open day for the
wider officers and staff to promote the Action Plan and, as I
said, we have an attaches conference, as we speak, to develop
it, so that is important. On biodiversity, we have got an inter-departmental
ministerial group on biodiversity, its next meeting is in the
next few days, either Lord Triesman or I will attend, and this
is to co-ordinate across government the role in biodiversity.
We, as a Department, are not under any circumstances, and maybe
a colleague could come in on this in a minute, underplaying or
downplaying it; it is a critical part of the work that we are
doing. Perhaps at the end of the discussion this afternoon, we
can show some of the practical measures we are taking where we
are investing in countries across the globe in protecting biodiversity
either to prevent a degradation or, where a degradation has taken
place, how to improve on that biodiversity, so it is a critically
important factor.
Q73 Chairman: The RSPB did say that
they felt it was a shame to see the loss of some FCO programmes
on biodiversity and environmental work in recent years. Are you
saying that those programmes or new programmes might be reinstated?
Is that something which the FCO would look at?
Mr Wightman: Perhaps as an overall
comment, what we are seeking to do with the resources that we
have available is to ensure that we are focusing on the areas
where we feel we can add the greatest value and achieve the greatest
degree of impact. To that extent, all of the work that we are
doing on climate security has a major impact, or we hope will
have a major impact, on protecting biodiversity in the medium
to long term. Equally, one of the sustainable development priorities
that we have in our Sustainable Development Strategy and as one
of the streams of work in our programme activity is around environmental
governance. So what we are trying to do in that is to identify
where we can intervene most effectively. It is true that in the
past we have supported a number of small-scale projects which
have been extremely worthy in themselves, aimed at protecting
specific species or specific communities, enabling them to work
to nurture their own particular ecosystem. But we have come to
the conclusion on the basis as well of expert advice on the effectiveness
of our programmes from Stephen Bass, the former Chief Environmental
Adviser at DFID, that the most effective way in which we can intervene
is more at the policy, regulatory and legislative level. We feel
that, by focusing our efforts on enhancing the quality of environmental
governance both at the international level and also at the national
level, we can have a much broader impact on biodiversity across
the board rather than on specific activities. Having said that,
in addition, as I think the Committee is aware, we do, through
the Overseas Territory Environment Programme, support specific
projects designed to protect the biodiversity of our Overseas
Territories.
Mr McCartney: An example, Mr Challen,
surely in terms of using our negotiating skills and Foreign Office
contacts is our working in partnership with the World Wildlife
Fund in terms of signing the Heart of Borneo Initiative by the
governments of Borneo, Indonesia and Malaysia for sustainable
development to protect one of the rarest and largest ecosystems
in the world, and that is where our skill and knowledge is, that
is where our capacity is. You could not put a price on achieving
an agreement such as this. There are other areas where we are
working just as closely at this moment in time to do the same
thing.
Q74 Mr Caton: Some witnesses have
told us that the FCO is failing to work adequately with non-governmental
organisations in meeting our international objectives. Given that
the March 2006 White Paper specifically acknowledged the need
to work more closely with NGOs, what is the problem?
Mr McCartney: I did not know there
was a problem. Without boasting about it, a great proportion of
my time, whether it is at the DTI in the joint role with the FCO,
is engagement with NGOs and NGOs across the board. It is a critical
factor in my work. I cannot achieve what I need to achieve, the
objectives, the priorities that we have set in regions and in
countries unless I have a proactive working relationship. I will
take this to heart, I will take this back and, if there is more
that I can do and that the Department can do, we will do it. For
example, today, although it is not an issue for this Committee,
we have just sponsored a big event jointly with the All-Party
Group on Human Rights with the NGOs and we have refurbished completely
the activities that ministers undertake, and I will give an example
of this, and again, we are more than happy, if this is not working
in the way it needs to work, and maybe my colleagues can come
in in a moment on specific issues. For example, before I go to
a country, I sit down with the NGOs and talk through what the
priorities of the visit should be across all of the issues that
the NGOs might have and we then agree priorities for that visit.
Then, when I come back, I set out what we have achieved and what
we have not achieved, and the next thing I would do is set a work
programme out for future visits or contacts, so I am very keen
to work with NGOs and I am sorry if people feel that they have
not received that kind of contact. I will take it in the way it
should be taken and we will go back and look at it and see what
more we can do. It may well be in this area, as I am only one
of the ministers across government who deals with these issues,
that they may well have some legitimacy, so, if the Committee
wants to provide us with any examples of where this is happening,
I am more than happy to take this up and to resolve matters.
Q75 Mr Caton: Well, you will have
seen the evidence that has come to us. Can I give you one example
that at least one NGO has raised with us, that they said that
often there has been a good relationship perhaps with a post on
a specific project, but that once the project is done and dusted,
then the relationship is not ongoing, and what they would like
to have is some longer-term basis for the relationship with the
Department. Is that something that will come through in the NGO
strategy that you are developing?
Mr McCartney: For example, we
will be engaging with them in terms of any new action plans, and
I think Scott here will chair those discussions with the NGOs.
I think that the NGOs, the business representatives, the trade
unions, all the alliances that need to be there are going to be
included, so it is not just consulting them about what we want
to do, but we want to consult them about what they think we should
be doing. We want to fit them with the hat of actually developing
the policy itself so that it is more than just a consultation,
I would say it is a consultation plus where they have the capacity
actually to influence at the start of the policy development the
actual outcome of what that policy should look like, and I am
keen for that to happen. There is a lot of skill, knowledge and
commitment out there and it would be folly not to utilise it.
That does not mean we will be able to agree everything, that will
never happen, the NGOs always have their case to put and they
put it vociferously and that is to be welcomed, it helps people
like me to focus, but I give you an absolute assurance that, on
all of the work we are doing now and in future work, they will
be involved and invited to the table.
Q76 Mr Caton: You are putting together
a strategy for international action on climate change with other
departments. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
Mr McCartney: In terms of cross-Whitehall
co-operation, I think it is important, and I make it clear from
the outset, that this is an area where we have actually spent
a great deal of time attempting to improve outcome. You may well
say, "Is this not the tale of governments at all times, working
in silos both in development and outcomes?", but I think
it is important that we have a clarity about this, that we are
going to work, and are working, together. Now, on the working
closely arrangements, I will outline the arrangements that we
have. We have Defra, DFID, DTI and ourselves working on international
climate change strategies, for example, the work programme is
now to 2009, and part of our input into that is to make available
to those departments not just our intellectual resource, but our
network in order for them to deliver the strategy which has been
agreed after consultation. We will work with Defra and DFID on
sustainable development and, in particular, on sustainable development
dialogues. We have a Defra expert seconded to our development
team and we have officials who sit together on the programme board
on the Global Opportunities Fund which is an important fund in
terms of sustainable development investment. We also have, in
terms of cross-government working, as part of the same group our
business and investment teams, and this is important in terms
of corporate responsibility, engaging with the business community
to invest into other economies, and it is important, in investing
in those other economies, that they have not only an overall view,
but that they are part and parcel of the sustainable development
story and are committed to that. In terms of our strategy for
zero emissions and all those issues on carbon trading, it is even
more important now with the Stern Report that the business community
is locked into this debate and, therefore, we utilise those resources
as well across all the departments, and that is very, very important.
We also co-ordinate in terms of the United Nations Environment
Programme in the governing council so that we can co-ordinate
not just here in country, but co-ordinate at the posts out of
country as well. That is the kind of structure of the process
and what we are doing. I do not know if my colleagues want to
add anything to that.
Mr Wightman: I could say something
perhaps on the overall objective of the international activity
on climate change. The overall thrust is to try to create the
conditions that will lead to a comprehensive international agreement
on the post-2012 framework and, to achieve that, there is cross-Whitehall
agreement that one of the essential elements in that would be
to try to reframe the international debate in a way in which we
can engage the really key players in the negotiation, the key
major emitting countries, so China, the United States, India and
the EU. And we are engaged in the FCO in supporting the Prime
Minister and the Chancellor and the Foreign Secretary in a series
of dialogues and campaigns in target countries to raise awareness
of the issues, to work with different interest groups and exploit
the potential for leverage in different interest groups in different
countries so that we can create the conditions in which the broad
principles of an international agreement can be agreed and then
folded back into the multilateral negotiation. A key element of
where we want to get to, as far as the Government is concerned,
is an international agreement that facilitates a global price
for carbon. We are convinced that achieving that will be absolutely
essential to help direct the investments, particularly in the
energy sector, which will have 30- and 40-year consequences and
on which decisions will be taken over the next five to ten years.
So securing the extension and the expansion of the EU Emissions
Trading Scheme, for example, would be an important objective of
ours as well.
Mr McCartney: Alongside of that,
in my role, which straddles across the DTI and the Foreign Office,
I will give a practical example. Recently, and in advance of the
meetings between the Chinese and the Prime Minister, I went to
China to negotiate with them, bringing forward, with the support
of UK investment support and the European Union, the building
of the first zero-emission, coal-fired power station in China.
We achieved this objective and, when they came in, the memorandum
was agreed and signed. The second phase of course is to find the
400 million euros or so to build it. Why? Because every five days
in China a coal-fired power station is built and it has productive
capacity for at least 45 years, so this is a co-ordinated approach,
looking not only multilaterally, but bilaterally at how we can
share our technology and the capacity to work because we can do
everything we want to do in the European environment, but none
of it works unless we have a global environment which is clean
and healthy too.
Q77 Mr Caton: It is useful that you
have mentioned your dual role, Minister. Is one of the aims of
the strategy to align trade policy with climate policy?
Mr McCartney: As Minister for
Trade, it is very important that we utilise trade in a number
of ways. Firstly, as we hopefully get a successful conclusion
to the Doha Development Rounds, linked to that will be a growing
approach in regions to regional trade agreements, agreements between
least-developed countries and developed countries, like Economic
Partnership Agreements. These are areas where we are pressing
the Commission, and particularly Commissioner Mandelson and his
colleagues, to ensure, in our future development work on trade
agreements, that these areas of sustainable development are part
and parcel to the co-discussions and negotiations. I am pleased
to say that, in the discussions last Sunday and Monday with the
27 trade ministers and Commissioner Mandelson, I think there was
a growing awareness from all concerned and a positive atmosphere
that we seriously need to look to ensure in the future that these
are absolutely core to any agreements that are reached. Why? Without
these, we will not get sustainable development. We will get development,
but it will not be sustainable and we will not allow access to
technology in terms of least-developed countries being able to
develop their capacity. If we want not only to trade, but also
to be able to do so and safeguard the environment and their ecosystems,
we need to invest and help them invest in those situations. For
example, I recently, on behalf of not just ourselves, but working
with the European Union, went to Fiji. Why? Because their sugar
industry needs restructuring and, without restructuring, it will
fail in a global trading environment for all sorts of reasons.
I thought it was an opportunity, when there, to look to see whether,
in restructuring the industry, we could also restructure the way
that they can produce, using sugar, safe fuels not just for themselves,
but as an export to other parts of the Pacific region, so a benefit
both in trade and a benefit in terms of building their capacity
and not to leave them in a situation where they have thousands
of unemployed with the social problems attached to that and, in
ten years' time, looking to see their seas rising continually
in the Pacific, endangering themselves and many other Pacific
island communities, so it is putting those types of measures together
to try and make a difference.
Q78 Mr Caton: Mr Whiteman, you mentioned
in a previous answer that, in this cross-departmental strategy,
one of the main objectives is influencing other countries. Are
we doing enough on the domestic stage to show a sort of diplomatic
leadership that others will follow? I am thinking that people
will listen to you more if you are walking the walk as well as
talking the talk. Thinking of our 2010 target for a 20% reduction
in carbon dioxide emissions, which we look like failing quite
badly, does that affect the attitude of other nations towards
us?
Mr Wightman: I cannot comment
on the domestic policy, but you are absolutely right that the
ability for the UK to sustain the leadership that it has shown
internationally and given internationally, I think, is dependent
on how people perceive actions which have been taken by the Government
domestically to pursue its own domestic targets and to pursue
the general policies in relation to emissions and reductions,
so I think, as a general principle, you are right, yes.
Mr McCartney: Okay, I am a politician,
but the Government are already working now on the next stage of
another Energy White Paper and we are working very closely in
terms of the adoption of an energy paper and strategy for the
European Union. We are a world leader in this and I do not say
that in a boastful sense. It was us who developed the Stern approach
and it is that, in my view, which has galvanised the world in
a way it has never galvanised it before. There is still a long
way to go both in terms of putting meat on the bones, as it were,
but everywhere I go in the world now, the one thing that is certain
is that there is always a positive view about what the UK is trying
to achieve. Yes, there needs to be more on R&D and the science
base in terms of bringing about new forms of energy production
and sustainable and affordable energy production, yes, we need
to do more international collaborations, and yes, we need to get
a new generation of power production in Britain which is not only
sustainable, but environmentally sustainable too, and these are
all big challenges, but they are challenges that the Government
is actually planning to meet, but meet it in a way of doing it
by co-operation and getting the British people to buy into it
which is important. So there is still a lot to do, you are absolutely
right, but let us not forget what has been done so far. Kyoto
would not have happened if it had not been for the Prime Minister
and his negotiating skills. We are now in the business of what
happens after Kyoto, which is really, really important, and we
are now in the business of getting agreement in the European Union,
we hope, through the current German Presidency not only to achieve
the emissions trading, but to look at actually how we develop
R&D and investment in infrastructure in safe, effective and
sustainable forms of energy production, so there are all these
areas which are all challenges, but they are all areas which,
as the Government, we are on top of.
Q79 Mr Caton: Your reference to post-Kyoto
leads me on to my next question. John Ashton has been appointed
Special Representative on Climate Change for about six months
now. Has this enabled us to make more progress in reaching a robust
post-2012 international agreement on climate change?
Mr McCartney: Yes, John asked
me to send his apologies because at one point we were hoping he
would come to the meeting, maybe at some point later, as I am
quite sure John would like to meet the Committee and I am sure
this is an issue you will return to again. The arrival of John
has indeed helped us, and I do not want to be too flowery about
it, but he has made a major and dramatic impact in terms of directing
the attention of the network of overseas posts to this issue.
Firstly, his intellect and his capacity to enthuse people has
been very, very important and, in a very complex area, the one
thing you need to be able to achieve to get people themselves
to think and have confidence to go out and do the job for you
is that they know that the people they are working with actually
will direct you, and we have a very strong leadership, so you
have got leadership in the Civil Service and leadership from Margaret
Beckett and the two of them working together is actually important.
Going back to the question earlier about the public and policy
campaigns, we need to do more campaigning on this issue and again
John is working on that and how best to do that with civil society,
with business, with NGOs, with parliamentarians, the academic
science base, whatever, and we need to be able to do that and
John is very effective at working in that. In taking forward the
Stern Review, he is also someone who has got an international
reputation which is very, very important in these matters, and
I am pleased we have got him. I think, from our perspective, the
way in which we have been able, in a very short space of time
since Margaret came to the Department, to change the priorities
and the effectiveness of the team is down to his leadership.
Mr Wightman: The Foreign Secretary
and John Ashton together have been instrumental in changing the
focus of the Foreign Office's work internationally on climate
change so that we are no longer simply approaching climate change
as fundamentally an environmental issue, but seeing it as a much
broader issue which fits into economic development, poverty reduction,
energy security and national security across the board, and I
think that we have had quite a considerable degree of success,
thanks to John's intellectual input, in changing the way that
some of our international partners are addressing the question
as well.
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