Examination of Witnesses (Questions 53
- 59)
MONDAY 26 FEBRUARY 2007
MR CHRIS
FOLEY AND
MR STEVE
HOLLAND
Q53 Chairman: Gentlemen, welcome.
I know there will be some on the Committee who think this is just
a Gloucestershire love-in. It may well turn into something of
that sort but I welcome Chris, who is very well known to me, and
I seem to remember Steve had some previous incarnation but is
now a representative of Advantage West Midlands. It is good to
have you both here and, without more ado, you know what we are
here to do. We are looking at a very apposite time at the situation
facing British Waterways but also looking slightly wider afield
at the implications of the canal network and the inland ports
on what we might be able to do in terms of regeneration. I could
be wicked and ask you which of the five objectives of the RDAs
you think your relationship with BW is most closely associated
with but I will not. Rather, I will just start positively and
say, from your own experiences, where is the relationship at its
strongest with BW and where do you think is a need for improvement?
Mr Foley: I think probably that
from our perspective—and I speak primarily from the South
West RDA's perspective but having had at least brief conversations
with other colleagues and the national secretariat—that
it is probably at the individual project level that it is at its
best. However, with all of these things it is very much a mixed
situation, a curate's egg, if you like. You referred to some of
the Gloucestershire schemes and my understanding, say, of the
Cotswold Canals project is that that started off with British
Waterways being perhaps more reluctant there because it was not
part of the national network but they have obviously moved over
a period of time and become a major funder and at the centre of
driving that scheme forward with other partners. In terms of where
things might be better, for an organisation, like a number of
organisations, which have had regeneration added to their aims
and objectives, as it were, at different times, that is evident
at various levels but not always consistently, and trying to decide
how important it is and where it applies would be beneficial,
I think, but also I think looking at funding regimes that go with
that, because that seems to us to be an area where BW is hindered
by the way it is structured and financed.
Mr Holland: I have very similar
comments really, Chairman; from a project officer level very similar.
I am not sure if it is an advantage or not that the new regional
director of the West Midlands is one of our former employees,
so there is obviously a longstanding relationship there. As Chris
said, on a case officer by case officer basis, it works very well.
As with everything, with a lot of organisations, the further up
the tree it goes, sometimes the more disparate the relationship
becomes but I generally do not believe we have that problem where
we are in West Midlands at the moment.
Q54 Chairman: Can you just give me
a feel for what discussions take place at a strategic level? Obviously,
I know in my own patch what is happening at the grass roots but
I would be interested to know in terms of both RDAs whether you
have regular meetings of a strategic type with BW management,
so that you look at potential synergies that may exist between
some of the canal projects that they have in mind and some of
your land ownership. I could talk about my own experiences but
I would just like to look at some of the things a bit higher up
the levels of operation.
Mr Foley: My experience is that
there is discussion at general manager level for the area, so
in terms of Gloucester and the general manager who is there, I
am in contact with him on a quarterly or six-monthly basis and
there is quite a good rapport and understanding there but I am
not aware of any higher-level contact. That may be, as I say,
because I am not aware of them taking place at chief executive
level or that type of thing. I am certainly not aware of anything
that takes place on a regular basis.
Q55 Chairman: Is that a weakness?
Is that something that you should be aware of? We have established
in the previous session that a figure of £1 billion could
be put on the asset base of BW. That may be a gross exaggeration
or it may in fact be an under-estimate but that is pretty important,
certainly in some parts of both of your RDA regions. Does that
not need some strategic direction?
Mr Foley: The answer to that has
to be yes because, in the same way that we meet with other organisations
at a high level, it would be useful to be doing that within BW
but, as I say, I do have to say that from my particular position
within the organisation, I am not aware of it taking place. That
may be a failure on our side but equally, it may be that it does
not happen anyway.
Mr Holland: I am aware that our
chief executive does meet with BW's regional director but how
often that does take place I genuinely do not know. We have an
awful lot of projects going on with British Waterways. I think
they have been very much consumed locally, particularly with the
budget cuts, as a result of the closure of the Birmingham office.
So I think maybe what has happened in the past has not happened
recently to reflect really the current position.
Q56 Mr Jack: I think it would be
helpful if, through whatever network the RDAs co-ordinate their
activities, to ask this question: how many RDAs have a canal strategy?
Is it printed, is there a document or something that one could
look at by RDA that says "This is our plan, our strategy
agreed with BW"? The message I am getting from both of you
is that, whilst there is almost a project by project, day by day
form of contact, there is not a document that you could produce
and say "Here you are, this is our canal strategy."
Mr Holland: I think it is interesting.
One of the potential problems might be, certainly taking our patch,
the West Midlands, we have a number of projects going on with
them in Birmingham, so would it go with the Birmingham strategy
or the Coventry strategy or the Stoke-on-Trent strategy? I am
sure there could be one canal point of reference document.
Q57 Mr Jack: Looking at the North
West development agency, they have a strategy for leisure and
tourism, they have one for transport, they have one for the environment,
which would cut across all of those areas and would incorporate
within them elements of strategic analysis, if it were to be the
case, where canals would fit in. Are you saying that you have
a geographic strategic approach in the West Midlands that makes
incorporating a canal strategy difficult?
Mr Holland: No, I am sorry. The
point I am trying to make is that a number of our projects, say,
there could be funding a project adjacent to a canal and it is
a question of whether you would consider that to be a canal-side
project or would your canal-side project be an upgrading of a
canal? It is almost questioning the level of detail that you would
want to go into. It is almost if "canal," is in the
title that would pull up a whole host of projects whereas if you
are purely interested in us upgrading canals rather than, say,
gap-funding schemes adjacent to canals, if you want the whole
thing combined, that is fine. I think that could be pulled together.
Q58 Mr Jack: I suppose what I am
interested in is—and you pose the question but if you are
establishing a working relationship between British Waterways
and the RDA, it should be for that joint group discussion, whatever,
to determine what is in the interests of both organisations. I
am not getting the feel that that kind of strategic welding together
of mutual interest is taking place.
Mr Holland: I generally do not
disagree with you.
Q59 David Lepper: British Waterways
has a number of different functions. It manages the network, it
is the steward of the canals, it is a property developer, it promotes
leisure and freight use of the waterways and it has responsibilities
for regeneration and restoration work. Does it have too many functions
it is responsible for, and do some of the others get in the way
of their contribution to regeneration work at times, from your
experience?
Mr Foley: Whether it has too many
is not something that I am qualified to talk about but in terms
of how we perceive the organisation, looking at it through a regeneration
perspective approach, it is like other organisations whose prime
objective is not regeneration. Inevitably, their core, if you
can look at it that way, their higher, overriding purpose means
that they do not always focus on regeneration as one would like
them to do, and I think that there are certainly tensions there.
Clearly, their own strategies and so on emphasise their commitment
to that, so I do not think that is there. I think it is the way
it is interpreted and then passed down the system, as it were,
and how a thing comes out, and perhaps as much as anything, particularly
at the present time, where the pressures are, because they obviously
have a network that they have to maintain, and both staff resources
and financial, I think our experience perhaps collectively is
that with property, as a key asset in regeneration, they are looking
to see what they can make from that and put that towards helping
the operational side, because it is inevitably under pressure,
as perhaps the first call sometimes—not always but sometimes—when
we are coming at it from a different thing that is much more about
the longer term and perhaps requires a different form of risk-taking
as well. It is a different mindset as much as anything else.
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