Examination of Witnesses (Questions 520
- 539)
WEDNESDAY 23 MAY 2007
RT HON
DAVID MILIBAND
MP AND MR
ROBIN MORTIMER
Q520 Patrick Hall: I think Mr Mortimer
is bursting to say something.
Mr Mortimer: There was a judgment
about the number of different areas of expertise that you would
want to have covered, and the risk of creating a huge list that
covers everything. I think that climate change policy, which is
the last point here, can cover all sorts of things. We have picked
out in particular social impacts, obviously thinking of fuel poverty
in particular, but that is not the only one. I think that can
cover all manner of things.
Q521 Chairman: A good defensive line,
Mr Mortimer. You are supporting your Secretary of State well there.
Mr Mortimer: That was the view
of the advice really. On the point about the trajectory, surely
the question is not merely a scientific one in relation to what
is the optimal pathway to a long-term budget or towards a long-term
target. The target itself might be primarily decided through looking
at the science but actually the optimum trajectory towards that
is an economic question, it is a question about social impacts.
I think that is the rationale for dealing with all those factors.
Q522 Patrick Hall: Indeed, which
suggests that the Committee is also going to be dealing with the
stuff of policy, is it not? Is the advice from the Committee going
to suggest policy change in order to achieve the targets?
David Miliband: Maybe we have
not made this clear enough, Patrick, but it is pretty clear that
this is not a policy committee. There is provision for the Government
to ask the Committee for policy advice, but the remit of the Committee
is to recommend budgets, that is the fundamental thing, and secondly
to monitor progress. It does not say to the Committee: "Tell
us what you think our policy on cavity wall insulation should
be vis-a"-vis solar panels?" We can ask them
for that sort of advice, but that is not the starting point. Its
role is to recommend budgets and to monitor progress.
Q523 Patrick Hall: And look at sectoral
achievement?
David Miliband: Yes.
Q524 Patrick Hall: Which all has
policy implications, does it not?
David Miliband: It may have implications,
because you may find that one sector is lagging far behind another
sector in the progress that it is making and it would point that
out to government, but, unless requested, the Committee would
not come forward and say, "Therefore we think that in respect
of buildings you should do X, Y and Z." It might say, "We
note that office buildings of a certain size or public sector
buildings or private sector buildings or small businesses are
not making as much of a contribution as other parts of the economy",
but, unless asked, they would not then say, "We think you
should change the Energy Efficiency Commitment in the following
way."
Q525 Patrick Hall: No, in order to
do its job properly, the members of the Committee are going to
have to be aware of the policy context and there is a range of
expertise, apart from biodiversity, which you might give consideration
to, I hope I detected?
David Miliband: Yes.
Q526 Patrick Hall: These people may
well not be able to help thinking in terms of policy, and it may
be very useful for all of us, including government, that they
do so. Could I just ask how you are going to make these appointments?
David Miliband: I am not sure
I can make them. I think they are done, first of all, through
the usual Nolan procedures and then nominations will come to me.
I suppose—I am not going to interview them—they would
then come to be signed off by me.
Q527 Patrick Hall: When they are
in place, I am sure this Committee and may be others would be
delighted to meet them?
David Miliband: I am sure they
will not be shy, retiring violets.
Q528 Chairman: It says here you do
appoint them. Schedule one: "In appointing a member the Secretary
of State must have regard to"—
David Miliband: I misunderstood
Patrick's point. I will not be interviewing them, as I said, but
the recommendations of the independent panel which does public
appointments would come to me to be signed off.
Q529 Chairman: How long are they
going to be there for?
David Miliband: We said five years,
I think.
Q530 Chairman: Where does it say
that?
David Miliband: We did not specify.
Q531 Chairman: So it might be five
years, but you have not specified it?
Mr Mortimer: The clause at the
moment simply says that the term of appointment will be in the
letter of appointment. So, the Government has not yet decided
how long each term of appointment should be.
Q532 Chairman: The reason we asked
that question is that, if you like, one of the strengths of the
Monetary Policy Committee, which is often being quoted as a parallel
type of body, has been that nobody regards it as their personal
fiefdom because they are only there for three years, there is
a rotating cast list, and obviously there has been a fair amount
of importance attached to the "independence" of this
body. Is that something which is still malleable?
David Miliband: I think I am right
in saying, correct me if I am wrong, that there are two bodies
that are parallel to this, one is the Monetary Policy Committee
which, as you say, has three earlier appointments, there is the
Low Pay Commission, I do not think there is a term limit for the
Chairman, maybe a bit like a select committee, I do not know.
Q533 Chairman: I am time-limited.
David Miliband: Are you?
Q534 Chairman: Yes, two parliaments
and out—brutal—a bit like being a secretary of state.
David Miliband: We certainly do
not have time limits, but our problem is the opposite of being
here too long. I can see some arguments for fixed term appointments
for ministers; it might give us a bit of job security! We have
left some flexibility, but I take your point that the three-year
model has worked well on the Committee.
Q535 Chairman: Just to come back
to this question of the nature of the advice and the transparency
of the information that reaches you, if we look at the terms in
which the Bill discusses the report to Parliament, it talks about
a report—
David Miliband: Which page are
you looking at?
Q536 Chairman: I am looking in the
Bill now on page ten, I am looking in clause 21(1) where it says:
"It is the duty of the Committee to lay before Parliament
each year, beginning with year 2009, a report setting out the
Committee's views on the progress made towards meeting the carbon
budgets." If you are going to have a word like "views",
it has got to just be more than a series of numbers. It will express
an opinion. I suppose inevitably, will it not be the case, that
the Chair of this Committee is going to get drawn when he gets
on to the Today Programme for his first report and Mr Humphreys
says, "Well, you said so and so. Why do you think that the
Government have done so well or so badly compared with the target?",
and he goes, "Oh, well, I cannot really tell you that actually."
He is bound to have an opinion.
David Miliband: No. I think from
what I have said it would be obvious what he would say. He would
say in the transport sector they have done particularly well.
However, in the area of home heating there is a real problem because
the gas price has gone up and there has been increased coal burn.
This poses difficult questions and they are going to have to think
about it.
Q537 Chairman: I think what we are
getting at is we can imagine the reverse situation being true
when the information comes to you in terms of the advice on carbon.
You are a man with a strongly inquiring mind. You might say: "Why
have they come to this conclusion?" I cannot believe that
the document would not contain some form of reasoning as to why
they had come to that conclusion?
David Miliband: Do you not think,
if I can ask you—because this is a prelegislative scrutiny—that
there is a dividing line between a group of people coming to a
view about those parts of the economy that are playing their full
part in this carbon reduction bill and those parts that are not.
There is a division between that and then getting into detailed
policy questions about, for the sake of argument, to go back to
the example I gave, within the question of home/office heating
the particular policy instrument that is required then to make
a difference?
Q538 Chairman: If they came to you
and said, "You ought to change your policy and go for more
of this type of boiler and this is the policy", I would not
expect to get into that, but what I would say is that if, as people
who have an expertise, they were watching the trends and they
said to you, "Look, this sector is causing some problems.
The Secretary of State should consider taking action in this area",
that is the kind of advice—
David Miliband: That is fine though.
I think that is helpful.
Q539 Chairman: In paragraph 5.4(5)
on page 35 of your document, under question nine, it says that
you want to have a transparent reporting framework. Does that
mean that any kind of advice that comes along with the targets
will be put into the public domain?
David Miliband: You use the word
"advice". The report, which is what we talked about,
I presume it would be public.
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