Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20-30)
MR BEN
BRADSHAW MP, MR
SIMON WATERFIELD
AND MS
FIONA WALTERS
24 JANUARY 2007
Q20 Jim Dobbin: Could you say which
is the stronger lobby, the conservationists or the fishermen?
Mr Bradshaw: It is very difficult
to make a judgment and Honourable Members will have their own
views. I think they are different lobbies. I think there is a
difference between a very strong sectoral industry interest and
a kind of broader public concern about the sustainability of our
fishing industry, although I think it is unhelpful and short-sighted
constantly to try to drive a wedge between the fishermen and the
environmentalists. Actually, responsible fishermen and responsible
environmentalists want exactly the same thing; they want a healthy,
productive, marine environment, with healthy fish stocks, not
just for biodiversity reasons but for economic reasons, so that
those fish are there to exploit for future generations. One of
the things that I am very encouraged about, although I think we
still had a big challenge on this in recent years, is that we
are seeing much more co-operation and collaboration between the
fishing industry and between scientists, we are seeing environmentalists
working with fishermen, in many parts of the country, to try to
establish more sustainable fishing practices. I think that has
to be the way forward, rather than simply having this constant
and historic argument between the fishermen and the environmentalists
about how many fish there are in the sea.
Chairman: On lobbyists: Richard.
Q21 Richard Younger-Ross: The EU
has a lot of lobbyists working in Brussels; to come to a decision,
there has to be a fairly equal balance between the pressure being
brought by one lobby and another for ministers and the researchers
and the Commissioners to come to a reasonable answer, not being
shouted at by one side. Considering that there is one lobbyist
for every member of staff that works in Brussels, do you think
that the balance is about right?
Mr Bradshaw: I can speak only
from my own experience, and certainly my own experience on fisheries
is that the fishing industry is always in Brussels in force, there
is no doubt about it, in the run-up to the negotiations, not just
the December Council but other Council meetings that the industry
feels are important to them. We work together, my Scottish, Northern
Irish and, at times, Welsh colleagues and I, having regular meetings
through the Council, discussions with the industry to keep them
informed, and to discuss negotiating positions with them. I have
to say that, in general, the environmental organisations are not
as engaged in the negotiating process in Brussels and I regret
that. Certainly we try, in the course of the year, to make sure
that the environmental organisations provide a view on the December
Council recommendations, in the same way as the fishing industry
does. I think one of the main reasons for this is that we are
one of the few countries in the European Union where fisheries
and environment are combined in a single department, and in my
case in a single minister. Most other countries still have this,
I think, very damaging divide between a producer interest department,
a farming and fisheries department and an environment department,
and sometimes it is quite hilarious at Council meetings. At successive
Council meetings you will have an environment minister from one
country saying one thing in one Council, "Isn't it terrible,
the state of the fish stocks; we've got to do something about
it," and you will have the same country's fisheries minister,
in the next meeting, saying "I want more fish for my fishermen."
Thankfully, we do not have that problem in the UK because, very
sensibly, we have combined our producer interest departments with
our environment department.
Q22 Mr Borrow: Can I ask about a
dilemma which has been raised with us, which is the link between
the level of discards and the level of TACs, in the sense that
if you allow more fish to be caught then there are going to be
fewer discards, but that could mean that you are having levels
of catch which do not allow fish stocks to recover. Is that correct,
and is there a way of dealing with this situation which reduces
the level of discards without setting the level of TACs artificially
high?
Mr Bradshaw: The issue of discards
is caused by restrictions on catch levels but also by days at
sea. There are ways in which one can try to get round this, by
the use of technical measures, for example. Some of the technical
measures which we agreed at this Council gave some of our vessels
extra days at sea if they used particular gear, which was more
selective, which allowed them, for example, to catch prawns but
without catching the cod as a bycatch so much. So far, nobody
in the world involved in fisheries has yet invented the perfect
technical measure of catching only one species. It is a particular
challenge for the United Kingdom, in contrast to many other countries,
like Iceland, which is often quoted, for example, in that we have
an almost uniquely-mixed fishery around our coasts, where many
vessels are catching a large number of species. One of the reasons
that we argued against a zero TAC for cod, in spite of the scientific
advice, was that it was almost impossible to avoid catching some
cod, if you were going for haddock, which is plentiful, or prawns,
which are plentiful, so to have prevented any cod at all being
caught would have meant not allowing fishermen to catch anything
else either. Clearly, a balance has to be struck here, and this
is one of the complexities which we having to grapple with constantly.
Q23 Jim Dobbin: I think the Committee
would be interested in you saying something about the current
levels of fish stock around the UK and what the main problem areas
are, other than the North Sea cod issue?
Mr Bradshaw: Cod is the main problem
area. In a way, it is one which I think, because of the iconic
status of cod in our culture, always gets a lot of publicity.
In a way, it would be wrong to see the state of our fishing stocks
and the state of our fishing industry solely through the prism
of cod, because, as you have alluded to already, Mr Dobbin, many
of the other stocks, which actually are more important, in economic
terms, to our industry, are in good shape. I think cod is now
only the fifth stock in terms of its economic importance to the
UK fishing industry after prawns, herring, mackerel and haddock.
All of the latter four stocks are in reasonably good shape, and
they have not always been. The herring stock collapsed in this
country 20 or 30 years ago, and thanks to some of the tough decisions
we took back then the stock has recovered. Whilst people are concerned
about cod, rightly, most of the stocks of interest to our industry
are in good shape. That was one of the reasons why we managed
to achieve increases in many of the stocks, like prawns and haddock,
which are important to our industry, in the December Council,
which I hope will offset some of the reductions which will come
from the cuts in the cod TAC and days at sea. If you look at incomes
and price levels in our ports around the country, Chairman, I
think you will find that, certainly in terms of prices, they are
at all-time record levels and fisheries incomes last year increased
for the second year running. I hope, given the very healthy price
of fish again this year, that pattern will be repeated this year
too.
Q24 Chairman: I recall, when we spoke
in the Committee, we discussed the question of global warming
and the effect on cod stocks, that, in fact, the world levels
of cod stocks may be affected by global warming. Have there been
further thoughts on that, further scientific publications on that,
in the intervening period?
Mr Bradshaw: As far as I am aware,
and Simon may want to come in here, all of the research that I
have seen to date confirms the view which I think I expressed
to the Committee last year, that, although it is right that increased
sea temperatures have meant that some stocks have moved further
north, in terms of where they are appearing, the temperatures
around our coast are still well within the cod's range of habitat,
if you like. I think the fact that we had our best year class
in codlings, in baby cod, in 2005 for ten years in the North Sea,
shows that it is still perfectly possible for the cod to thrive
and recover in the North Sea. This is something certainly that
we are keeping a close eye on and which could have some quite
interesting impacts on our fishing industry. In my part of the
world, for example, the South West industry is making a lot of
money from things like squid and sardines, which are associated
more traditionally with the Bay of Biscay, and even the Mediterranean.
In fact, we are exporting big quantities of squid and sardines
to the fish markets of Italy.
Q25 Angus Robertson: Minister, we
know that the efforts to restore stocks have been going on for
a long time and, at the same time, pretty much just in one generation,
there are significant fishing communities, such as those in my
constituency, which have seen almost the complete eradication
of the industry; the jobs have gone, livelihoods have gone, the
way of life has gone, the nature of these communities is changing
fundamentally. Do you see any real prospect of an end to the cuts?
Mr Bradshaw: I am not sure that
the Honourable Member has listened to the answer I just gave.
In terms of most of our stocks and fisheries incomes, things have
been improving for three years and, in fact, not his own constituency
but the constituency of his Party Leader I think had a record
year last year; so it is not all doom and gloom, as some people
often try to suggest. I think there is a serious problem with
cod, which most sensible people recognise, and serious efforts
are being made to recover the cod stock. Most of our stocks are
in good shape, they are being fished sustainability and that is
the answer, if we want a long-term, sustainable and profitable
fishing industry, to avoid the mistakes of the past, when we have
overfished certain stocks and they have collapsed, as happened
to herring, as I said a little bit earlier, that is the way to
secure a long-term economic future for constituents such as the
Honourable Member's.
Q26 Angus Robertson: When do you
foresee the cuts ending?
Mr Bradshaw: As I say, there have
not been cuts this year. Most of the stocks that his constituents
are interested in actually increased in their TACs, so it is inaccurate
to refer to cuts; in fact, there have been increases, very significant
increases, in the last two years, in prawns, which is the most
important stock to the Scottish industry, by a long way, I think
they had a 39% increase in the TAC last year (in the West of Scotland)
and a further 10% this year. While it is true to say that we have
had to take some very difficult decisions on cod, there have been
some very welcome decisions on other stocks which are more important
in economic terms to the Scottish industry and to his constituents
in particular.
Q27 Richard Younger-Ross: I am going
to talk about Regional Advisory Councils, but just before we move
on, the cuts and the TACs, obviously a lot of people in the industry
are still feeling the pinch, they feel that there are a lot of
cuts, their boats are laid up, they are not earning their income
and there are some who may turn to the black market, black catches.
Has that issue been raised in Council and is it a concern to yourself
or the Council and Commission, the size of that market, and, if
so, are there any proposals to deal with it?
Mr Bradshaw: Yes, and I am very
grateful for that question, Chairman, because I think one of the
very significant things which have happened in the last 12 months,
and I think we have discussed this in this Committee before, is
that we introduced something called the First Buyers and Sellers
Registration Requirement, which means that there is now full traceability
of fish caught through the system, something which many people
have been calling to happen for a long time. The impact of this
has been dramatic in squeezing out illegally-caught fish from
the market, and that is one of the reasons why we have had such
a big increase in fish prices in the last year. Fish prices rose
by 15% last year overall and that is partly because, of course,
if you allow illegal fish to be put on the market not only do
you decimate the stock but also you deflate the price. Although
there is considerable resistance from much of the fishing industry,
particularly in Scotland, to the introduction of this Requirement,
they now think it is the best thing that has ever happened to
them, because it has boosted their income so much. You are absolutely
right to point to the importance of legality and transparency
in the fishing industry, and we have made enormous strides on
that in the last 12 months, which are now welcomed universally.
Q28 Richard Younger-Ross: Is that
across the EU?
Mr Bradshaw: It is across the
EU, yes.
Q29 Richard Younger-Ross: Moving
on to the Regional Advisory Councils, very recently we cleared
a proposal increasing the Community funding for these; can you
say whether these are working and what impact they are having?
For instance, what input did they have to TACs and to overseeing
North Sea cod?
Mr Bradshaw: I will give the Committee
a couple of examples, and again these were ideas which were widely
pooh-poohed by many people before they were established but now
are widely welcomed. At this December's Council, for example,
we achieved a derogation in the cut of days at sea in the Irish
Sea for boats fishing for cod, if they took part in what is called
an `augmented monitoring' scheme, where they have observers on
the boats to examine the issue of bycatch, which we discussed
earlier. This was a specific recommendation which had been worked
up by the North Western Waters Regional Advisory Council. In terms
of the cod recovery plan, the North Sea Regional Advisory Council
is very engaged in the discussions which are going to be taking
place this year on the review, the long-awaited review, of the
cod recovery plan. I have no doubt that as the Regional Advisory
Councils establish a reputation for responsible and sound investigations
and recommendations their influence will grow, and we think that
can be only a good thing.
Q30 Richard Younger-Ross: I am pleased
to hear that. The idea of regional input I think was first mooted
by an MEP, Robin Teverson, who was then the MEP for Cornwall,
now Lord Teverson. Do you feel, Minister, that there is a development
and a greater role for these; is it possible that we will look
at giving them greater powers, and do you see that developing
between both the EU waters, which probably we are talking about
here today, but will their influence come into what you call UK
waters?
Mr Bradshaw: Certainly I can imagine
their role growing and augmenting, and indeed that is one of the
things that we have said all along, that ideally we think that
Regional Advisory Councils should take on more and more powers
and more and more responsibility. In a way, if one thinks about
the seas around our coast, one of the strong arguments against
the idea that we could simply shut ourselves off from everybody
else and sort out our own fishing is that we share our waters
around our coasts with a number of other Member States but we
have regional seas. It makes sense, for example, in the North
Sea, to talk with the other countries which have an interest in
the North Sea, in the western Atlantic or the approaches to the
nations which have an interest there as well. That is where these
agreements need to be thrashed out, between the Member States
which have an interest and have a fishing tradition in those areas,
and that is what the Regional Advisory Councils are doing.
Chairman: We will finish this session
there, Minister; a very, very interesting discussion. I know that
Allan McCartney, a Scottish MEP, not of my own Party, was very
active in supporting Regional Advisory Councils as well and I
think many of us have seen the benefits. Can I thank you very
much for this session, it has been very long and I look forward
to your promises on scrutiny breaches being carried out, and us
having no disappointment to express in the future. Thank you for
the session on total allowable catches and the process. I think
that was very interesting. Particularly can you accept our congratulations
on alerting the Commission and our fellow members of the Fishing
Council to the plans by Iceland to try to sell whale meat. I think
everyone with any sense, in terms of world concern for animals,
will be very grateful to you and to your colleagues, and I congratulate
you on achieving success in that. It is a pity that we cannot
look forward to ending whaling completely by Iceland; it would
be a great boost if we could. Thank you for coming along to this
session.
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