Examination of Witnesses (Questions 180-199)
MR MARK
FUCHTER, MR
GUY WESTHEAD,
MR DAVID
RICHARDSON AND
MR DAVID
GREEN QC
1 MARCH 2007
Q180 Sir John Stanley: I have one
quite important point which I find difficulty finding the answer
to in the context of last week's debate. Your powers when you
refer to UK persons: is the definition of UK persons a UK resident
or the much narrower definition of a UK citizen?
Mr Richardson: The orders are
rather like sanctions orders. If we are thinking about trafficking
and brokering of goods from one overseas country to another so
that the goods do not touch the UK, to be guilty of an offence
you can be anybody in the UK, regardless or your nationality or
indeed regardless of your residence. You can just happen to be
in the UK while you do the act, or you can be a UK person, whether
you are a person with two legs or a corporate person, anywhere
in the world.
Q181 Chairman: Does that mean you
have to be a UK citizen?
Mr Richardson: No. For example,
if there was an American citizen, if they happen to be in the
UK—
Q182 Chairman: Yes, but if they are
not in the UK?
Mr Richardson: No, we do not have
jurisdiction on the extraterritorial offence.
Q183 Chairman: It has to be a UK
citizen?
Mr Richardson: Yes, or a UK person
which encompasses a UK citizen or a UK company.
Q184 Judy Mallaber: Does that include
somebody who is not a UK citizen but is acting from this country?
Mr Richardson: If they are in
this country while they do the act, yes.
Q185 Sir John Stanley: I thought
I had the answer first time but now on that second answer I am
not sure. If you are somebody who has UK residents' rights but
is not a UK citizen and carries out a WMD traffic and brokering
overseas, is that person still subject to a criminal prosecution
in the UK?
Mr Richardson: Probably not. If
they come into the UK to do the act, then yes.
Q186 Sir John Stanley: No; outside.
Mr Richardson: If they are outside,
then no. If they just have a right to reside in the UK but they
are not a UK citizen, I would not have thought they would come
within that provision.
Q187 Sir John Stanley: There is some
doubt in your voice. I am not being critical. Could you give us
a definitive answer on that question in writing?
Mr Richardson: Yes. Can I just
be clear? It is somebody who is not a UK citizen but does have
UK residency entitlement?
Q188 Sir John Stanley: Yes. There
are plenty of such people.
Mr Richardson: But they are not
in the UK while they do the act.
Q189 Chairman: The act is outside.
Hence, the extraterritoriality.
Mr Richardson: I will do my best
to find a definitive answer.
Q190 Sir John Stanley: Your extraterritorial
powers, as I understand it, rest on primary legislation. Does
the work you do on extraterritoriality on trafficking and brokering
in relation to WMD bring you within the ambit of the review of
secondary legislation which is being carried on effectively government
wide? Are you within that review or not?
Mr Richardson: I simply do not
know. I am sorry.
Mr Fuchter: My understanding is
that we are. I understand that to be part of the review.
Q191 Sir John Stanley: This is a
very important point for us. Could you confirm that?
Mr Fuchter: I would have to confirm,
yes.
Q192 Sir John Stanley: You may want
to reflect on this and give it to us in writing but this is very
helpful and material to us: do you have any concerns about the
adequacy of your existing powers to deal by way of UK prosecution
with UK persons, as you have defined them, who commit WMD trafficking
and brokering offences overseas? Do you have any suggestions?
Do you have gaps in your powers or shortcomings? Are there any
proposals you want to ask us to consider as to how your powers
might be necessarily strengthened to enable necessary prosecutions
to be carried out in this crucially important and hugely potentially
life saving area?
Mr Green: That is an area I would
like to reflect on, if I may.
Q193 Judy Mallaber: Have you any
indication when we are likely to know more about this apparently
extremely interesting case that has now been raised over the last
two years by Sir John?
Mr Green: I believe on the last
occasion you received a ministerial communication about this.
I would be happy to arrange for a further update.
Chairman: That is extremely kind. Thank
you.
Q194 Sir John Stanley: Can you tell
us whether you have any similar such cases to add to the one we
know about, WMD trafficking and brokering?
Mr Green: No.
Q195 John Barrett: There is a large
number of arms coming to the UK from the Balkans. In 2005 there
were about 200,000 assault rifles and machine guns imported from
Bosnia and Croatia. Am I right in thinking that the Revenue and
Customs have responsibility for imports? How thorough is the checking
of these imports on the numbers of guns getting into the country?
Mr Fuchter: There is a 100% check
on commercial imports of firearms and these are the sorts of cases
to which you are referring. Officers have some discretion over
how they execute that. If they regard the importer as a well known,
regular shipper through their port, they may confine that to a
documentary check, but they have the discretion to physically
examine the goods and to count them. Supplementing that we have
a small team of officers who work throughout the UK called Firearms
and Explosives Officers whose job is to audit the books of registered
firearms dealers with particular regard to declared imports. We
have the frontier control backed up by a deeper audit that takes
place of all registered firearms dealers, registered to hold section
five firearms, which is exactly what these assault rifles would
be. They undertake a number of audit checks. They check that all
imported goods have been entered into the firearms register. They
work alongside the police who have broader responsibilities across
dealer to dealer transactions within the UK, whilst our audit
actions are confined to imports. Those firearms and explosives
officers' audits will also include where firearms are subsequently
re-exported, but the only way we are looking at firearms coming
into the UK and moving out for re-export is very much at dealer
level.
Q196 John Barrett: Is there a clear
number of how many guns, assault rifles, machine guns, are then
left in the country? Out of these 200,000 that came in in 2005,
is anyone counting the numbers that went back out? What would
we think are the numbers left in the UK?
Mr Fuchter: No one in my organisation
is doing so. I understand that to be a responsibility of the DTI's
import licensing branch. I would have to stress that all of these
transactions were given an import licence because in each case
it involved a registered and approved firearms dealer.
Q197 John Barrett: Do you know if
anybody in the DTI is counting the numbers?
Mr Fuchter: I do not know that
for sure, no.
Q198 Chairman: Would it be fair to
say that the control exists in relation to importation and the
control exists for those who apply for a licence to export, but
it is not entirely clear, like the number of parliamentarians,
who is asking the question? A massive number of assault rifles
come to this country in 2005 from the Balkans. What happens to
them?
Mr Fuchter: The original question
would have been asked at the time the import licences were applied
for because there would have been import licence coverage for
that quantity of firearms. That is not something that Revenue
and Customs are involved in at all. That takes place prior to
the point you are making. Our FExOs, certainly for the registered
firearms dealers concerned, will be looking at the stock levels
and disposal. They are doing a number of detailed audit checks.
In essence we are there to prevent any leakage of imported firearms
onto the illicit UK market.
Q199 Chairman: Presumably, if a substantial
number of assault rifles et cetera come into the UK, you
know who the end user is going to be in the UK. We know from documentation
where they go?
Mr Fuchter: Not necessarily. When
they are imported, they are imported by an importing firearms
dealer and it would be that person whose details appear on the
import declaration. These are completely declared, legitimate
imports so we know where they will have gone to.
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