Examination of Witnesses (Questions 29
- 39)
TUESDAY 24 OCTOBER 2006
MS DECIMA
FRANCIS AND
MR KEN
BARNES
Q29 Chairman: Thank you both for
joining us this morning. I think you have both been able to hear
the two previous witnesses, so you will know the sort of ground
that we have covered. May I ask each of you in one or two lines
to introduce yourself for the Committee and for the record, please?
Ms Francis: My name is Decima
Francis, I am from the From Boyhood to Manhood Foundation. We
are based in Southwark, in Peckham. We are 10 years old as a project,
although the parent company is 25 years old, and we are just in
the process of losing that. We work with young people who are
excluded, in danger of exclusion, who are out of the system completely,
and we created the Gun Crime Curriculum for the Mayor of London,
which is in all London schools—a lot of them are not using
it—and we have just piloted three times in Milton Keynes
in Woodhill Prison.
Mr Barnes: My name is Ken Barnes.
I represent two organisations here. First, I am the founder and
the President of an organisation called 100 Black Men of London—the
organisation is basically a collection of men who volunteer their
time to mentor young boys and girls within the community—and
also I represent an organisation called C-A-N-I Consultancy, which
focuses on intervention programmes within the education system.
Q30 Chairman: Thank you very much
indeed. We will, inevitably, cover very similar questions to the
previous session, but we are very interested in the answers you
give. I will start in a very similar way. You know the title of
our inquiry. You both come from organisations that have seen some
need to target a get-specific response on young black men. I would
be interested to know why and what you think the big problem or
the big issue is that we should be addressing in the course of
our inquiry. Mr Barnes, do you want to go first?
Mr Barnes: Firstly, a point I
always seem to make, and that is that I believe children are a
product of society, but I also believe that society is something
that has been allowed to be created by the adults within that
society, so I think we have to take some responsibility for the
conduct of our children. I think too much deference has been made
on our children. The focus on your inquiry is about the correlation
between the amount of young black boys in the penal system. I
am really going to focus here on the education system, because
I believe there is a definite causal link between education and
crime, education and poverty. So, this is going to be the basis
of the evidence I am going to give to you today.
Ms Francis: Can you ask me the
question again?
Q31 Chairman: Yes. We have got this
inquiry, we have called it "Young Black People and the Criminal
Justice System", which, as I said at the very opening of
the session, comes up because the statistics say there is overrepresentation.
There is a big debate about what they mean, what is going on,
what that represents. You have come from an organisation that
has seen a need, for whatever reason, to target young black men
and so I am asking the question: what is the issue you think that
we should be focusing on in our inquiry?
Ms Francis: I think the same as
the speakers before. This is governmental, this is societal, this
is parental and this is global. I say this because in March I
was at Harvard University with the young, black men of Harvard
who were looking at "rap", and we were looking at "rap"
as the new language for young people, in particular black people
now. We were interlinked with Africa, South America and different
cities in America. The young, black people across the world who
did not speak English spoke "rap". They could speak
to each other in "rap", and I will go back to what the
young man said before. This is a very dangerous language. It is
allowed to be because it does not really affect your community
yet, but I am seeing signs of it starting to happen. Distributors
are allowed to distribute this music, which is a hell music, and
we have the Pied Piper as a play and as a story, and it is very
interesting that it is music that is used to take the children
away because it puts them into a state of trance and then it becomes
the vision for the future. We are talking about globalisation.
The way that the young people dress and behave and the words they
use that are not British, they are not Caribbean and they are
not African. We do not say "nigger", we do not use those
words at all. I lived in America for seven and a half years and
did much the same kind of work. What I have seen is that, as that
word, which has come to Britain out of the music, has become part
of the way that our young people speak, the young people now treat
each other in the same way as the people in the Deep South, the
KKK, et cetera, and the way that we kill each other as young people,
because they do, in exactly the same callous, brutal and inhuman
way, with total disregard for anybody and anything. They will
shoot in the morning, outside a school, outside a fish and chip
shop, in McDonalds, in front of parents and children, and they
are using that word. Before we used it we never had this kind
of killing—not by children on children—and they are
the only ones using it, so we must be very mindful. If the Asians'
or if the white people's young people produced music like that,
you would stop it in a heartbeat, you would stop it immediately.
Eminem, or whatever his name is, cannot produce that kind of music.
He only mentioned his mother in a negative way and there was huge
uproar across the world. What they do and say about us as women
and people and the ability to kill each other for no reason whatsoever
is undesirable, and you have allowed it to happen.
Q32 Chairman: From the two of you
we have had education as a major issue, we have had the rap music
issue as a major influence. In the previous session there was
some discussion about whether what was happening to young, black
people was actually a class issue, was actually the way we have
labelled something that is happening to all poor, young people.
From what you both say it sounds as though there is something
distinctive about what is happening to young, black people which
is different, at this moment in time, at least, from what is happening
in other communities. Is that fair?
Mr Barnes: I would say so. I would
say most definitely there is something distinctive. I would also
add, I think, that the crimes that are committed by young, black
boys are similar crimes that are committed in other parts of the
country where social and economic conditions exist, but there
may be different reasons why black boys commit this crime. I work
in the school system and continually one of the issues that comes
up is we spend an inordinate amount of time discussing with the
children how are they going to get home safely from school. That
journey may be half a mile or that journey may be two miles. The
most underreported crimes at the moment are crimes against young
people, and it is a massive problem. These crimes are being committed,
obviously, by young people, and what happens is that when these
young people commit these crimes, they develop an impunity, they
feel they can continue, and that criminal mindset then develops
and is transferred into their adult life. I sit here, I have worked
with hundreds of thousands of young children. I would say the
majority of them are definitely not criminals, but there is a
fact that the media would propagate that black boys are criminals,
and psychologists have sometimes seen that young people sometimes
act in accordance with what they think many of their peers are
doing, rather than what they believe many of their peers are doing,
just to fit in with what they see as the norm.
Ms Francis: I am going to start
by saying that the percentage of young, black people, boys in
particular, but young, black people, who are failing or who are
into crime is not so huge. We have to say that. When the speakers
spoke before they talked about two groups. There are three groups.
There are the groups who are doing very well thank you very much,
there are the groups who are on the borderline and there are the
groups who are in danger and are dangerous. Let us put that in
context first. What is distinct about the black boys and the crimes
that we are committing at the moment is not just specific to Britain.
I travel a lot; I have just come back from Boston. I am Caribbean;
I go home a lot. I watched this thing happen on my native island
of St Kitts within five years of getting American TV. Before that
we had British TV, and everybody was outside socialising, having
a life, et cetera, et cetera. Within five years, in a community
of 36,000 people—all of us are related in one way or another,
we are all cousins in one way or another—we have gang violence,
drugs, murder, et cetera, et cetera. How is that possible? Last
year there were 12 murders by young people. They dress the same,
in that same way, with their trousers down their behind, the hoodies,
et cetera, et cetera. There is a globalisation that is happening.
We really must look at that. What is missing is that we have forgotten
what it is to be British. It is not okay to be British any more.
It is not okay to be proud. It is not okay to say, "Clean
the streets. Clean your windows. Make the place look nice. Do
not throw your rubbish on the floor. Get up for old women and
young children. Behave like adults and behave well. This is a
civilised country." We are not doing it any more, and we
need to start again. I started FBMF because, when I came back
from America in 1995 to do the arts, I saw these young, black
people hanging around on the street. It was like: what are they
doing there? Why are they there? Because there were so many of
them. They said they were excluded from school. This is England.
Who thought of anything so stupid? You just cannot exclude young
children from their society. That is where they spend most of
their life; that is where they build their history; that is where
they have their friends. If you do it to adults within six months,
they are depressed. What do you think happens to children? That
is number one. Number two: the problem started with you—not
you personally because you were not in government. You gave licence
to young girls to go out and get pregnant so that they can leave
their family home, because you gave them flats and money and furniture,
but you did a very dangerous thing in that you said that the young
men, their partners, were not allowed to live there or be there,
and then you talk about fatherless children.
Chairman: I think I will ask you to draw
this answer to a close because we have many other issues to cover.
I think you have made some really important points there. The
reason I cut you off is because I think we are going to cover
a lot of the issues that you are talking about in the later questions.
Q33 Mrs Dean: You have mentioned
globalisation, and if I could hear from both of you. In your experiences
how does a young person's involvement with the criminal justice
system vary between Caribbean, African and other black groups?
Is there a difference?
Ms Francis: Yes, there is. The
Caribbean children commit a lot of street robberies and they will
hang more with more of the other communities. The African communities
have recently come in. We have been here longer, and also we came
for different reasons. We were invited, and so we are second,
third, fourth, fifth generations. The Africans—I find in
Peckham we have the largest number—they are fairly new and
they have come in with different issues. Some of them have been
boy soldiers, some have been in war torn countries, so they have
a completely different attitude to socialising. They are brought
over and they are put into a school. There is not the counselling,
there is not the work that is done behind to be able to allow
that child to deal with what is going on in their lives. Many
years ago our young people said that they needed counsellors in
schools at eight o'clock in the morning so that they can off-load
what is happening to them so they can begin the process of education.
The Africans have a different mindset. They also are thinking
about what is happening in their own country. For example if they
are from Sudan, they are dealing with issues of war, or their
families at home, if they have families at home—those are
the two differences—but you will see a much larger increase
of crime within the African community, we are starting to have
to deal with it right now, as they settle into the country much
more.
Mr Barnes: You mentioned that
it is a global issue, and I talk within the context of England
and America because I am in America quite often. In fact the organisation
I belong to, we have a number of chapters in America, and there
are some definite common denominators between the two. One is
the social exclusion, social exclusion in society in general and
social exclusion in the education system, but it is also the case
that the black boys are far more likely to be stopped, they are
far more likely to be arrested, they are far more likely to be
charged, and they are far more likely to be given a custodial
sentence than any other ethnic group. So, these are some factors
that we also should be examining and the reasons behind that.
Q34 Mrs Dean: Do you see a difference
between those of Caribbean origin and those of African origin?
Mr Barnes: I sometimes see a difference
in the sense of self and sense of identity. I have obviously worked
with groups across the board, and within the African culture they
have their own language, they have their own dress, they have
their own identity; so I do sometimes feel that the African boys
I work with have a stronger sense of identity than the Caribbean
boys that I work with. But within the context of being black,
I heard the comment earlier on, "Why do we have Black History
Month?", and I feel quite strongly about that. I have just
conducted a series of events for that. Personally, I believe that
there should not be a need for it, but, unfortunately, there is.
My daughter was in school only three weeks ago and they were doing
a fantastic issue on the Tudors. She was very interested, as she
used to like to learn. She then stood up and asked her teacher:
"Were there any black people around in Britain in the Tudor
times?" Her teacher then stood up and said, "No",
and I found out this week it did not only happen in my daughter's
secondary school, it happened in my daughter's primary school
two weeks prior. If we have a black child that is trying to relive
history through a teacher's eyes and a teacher says, "Look,
there was no-one like you there at all", that gives them
no sense of self. If our children are, in essence, being denied
their history, then I think aspects of black history within schools
are extremely important.
Q35 Mr Streeter: But if that is the
accurate answer, what should the answer be?
Mr Barnes: In my report I mentioned
one of the primary things is the education of teachers. For a
teacher to stand up and tell a child that there were no black
people around is miseducation. It is not education; that is miseducation.
We went to the library the following day, we did our research.
I said, "Just take this to your teacher and show your teacher."
I am not too sure how the teacher took it, but within the school
system this is not education, this is miseducation, and this is
what has happened within our school system. I see miseducation
of our children. Within my report I believe there are a myriad
of factors which contribute to crime, poverty, socio-economics,
but I believe that education is about socialisation, it is about
teaching our children about respect for boundaries, respect for
rules, respect for society. Our children are within a school system
that at times does not accept them, does not respect them, and,
more importantly, does not expect from them. That is the reality
of it. We can talk about institutional racism or, at best, we
can talk about subconscious biases, because we all have subconscious
biases. I sit here and you look at me, not as a man, you look
at me as a black man, everyone here looks at me as a black man,
and if your perception of black is negative, then I am starting
from a deficit model. Our teachers look at our children as being
deficient rather than different. Even though there are a myriad
of factors I have focused on the education system, because I work
in education, time and time again the disappointing thing for
me is that organisations like myself are brought in on a remedial
basis, not on a preventative basis, they are brought in after
our children have reached a kind of psychosis where they are beginning
to rebel against society.
Chairman: I am going to apply the same
restriction I did to Decima Francis. We will cover a lot of these
issues. If we can keep the answers to questions quite tight, then
we will be able to do that.
Q36 Mrs Dean: Can I follow on from
that. You mentioned an issue about miseducation, and that applies
equally to girls and boys?
Mr Barnes: Yes.
Q37 Mrs Dean: To what extent are
the issues which From Boyhood to Manhood and 100 Black Men seek
to address unique to black boys and to what extent are they also
applied to black girls?
Mr Barnes: In a school system
I think the black girls are really catching up. Some black girls
are catching up the boys in the way of disaffection, and so I
would cover the whole spectrum. When I work within a school system
I talk about emotional intelligence, but the main thing I try
to give these young boys is hope. I want to give them hope for
the future because when they are at home they see their adults,
they see their uncles, they see their dads, facing economic hardship,
and school is what I call the first example of delayed gratification.
We are saying to a young person: "Go to school for five,
six years and at the end you will hopefully and potentially get
this." But our children are looking and they are seeing people
investing, not only in the education system but in further education
and degrees and still not being able to get their rightful place
or rightful just rewards. How can you then tell a 10-year old,
"We will invest five years in primary school and further
education with the hope that you can possibly get an excellent
career", when they see people around them with perfectly
good qualifications not achieving that. I am coming back to the
"rap" culture—because I believe it is obviously
definitely a contributory factor—that our children are being
sold. There are many white people, and I will be honest with you,
who are getting rich off feeding our children a lifestyle which
any one of us, given the choice, would potentially go for because
it is easy, it is glamorous and nobody likes to work. We all want
an easy life, do we not? If our children are sold this—and
this is an important point—from every single angle, and
I agree with the comment there, if there was a "rap"
record brought out about a Jewish man killing another Jewish man
there would be turmoil, so why are these misogynistic lyrics allowed
to be continued time and time again and for our young children
to be hearing them. It is all part and parcel of the socialisation
that happens to our young people. I try to give young people hope.
Chairman: Mr Barnes, I really am going
to invite you for a short answer. The problem is that we are running
ahead over questions that members are going to ask. If we can
keep it quite tight, we will make sure we cover everything.
Q38 Mrs Dean: Decima Francis, could
you say a little bit about the difference between black boys and
black girls and about the issues that are unique to boys but how
much they extend to girls?
Ms Francis: Black girls have it
a lot easier because black women have it a lot easier. A lot of
the problems started when the women who were invited here, came
to become professionals, they were asked to become nurses. The
men came to work on the railways and the buses and do factory
work. That is a huge difference. Once the change in nursing recruitment
occurred, all the women gave up, so we have women who do not work
any more as nurses. Then education went out of the house. My mother
was a nurse, most of her friends were nurses, there were books
in the house, we had to help them with their work. There was a
completely different sense of who you were and what you were.
But black women are super women, or we are given that label: we
run the house, we do whatever we have to do, we have the cars,
we have the money, we are promoted much easier; so the women are
brought up with that sense of the women being powerful and getting
through and being able to manage, and that they can manage on
their own. Nothing is told about the loneliness, the lack of partners,
et cetera, that goes along with that, and the lack of support
in general. We have the programme From Boyhood to Manhood Foundation.
We piloted a girls' programme. We got very little funding for
it. We had to stop it. No-one is aware that the problem, of course,
is always going to affect the girls in the end. So, that programme
is no longer going forward, but the need for it is increasing.
I think the girls are giving up because they are seeing what their
parents are having to put up with and I do not think they are
prepared to put up with it. I think that is what is happening.
They also want the easy money, and that word "easy"
is really important because that is what I hear from young people,
that is what I hear in prisons. We have to remember that at the
end of the day young people make the choice. We know that everything
is a factor in them taking up a life of crime, but at the end
of the day it is a choice, and what we should be looking at is
why they are making the choices. The girls are making the choices
because they want what they think the boys have and they do not
want to go through the degradation, and also they are now victims:
the girls are being raped, the girls are being treated badly.
That is the difference really.
Mr Barnes: Can I make a comment
on that.
Q39 Chairman: Let us move on.
Mr Barnes: I think it is an incredibly
important comment. Working with an organisation called 100 Black
Men, the experiences that I had before the organisation was established
of just saying to government departments that the organisation
was about 100 Black Men, that syntax caused an immense amount
of trepidation. Why? Because there were black men and there were
supposedly 100 of them, and I should believe that the black man
himself, they are a phenomenon within themselves, and they are
masculine. When their teacher stands up and she is five-foot three
and she stands up in front of a six-foot black boy who is only
12 to 13 and she has come down from Wiltshire to teach, her immediate
first thought is fear, and she has got to overcome that to then
start teaching this young person.
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