Examination of Witnesses (Questions 180
- 199)
TUESDAY 19 DECEMBER 2006
JASON LORD
COVER, HAYLEY
LITTEK, DEXTER
PADMORE, LEON
SIMMONDS, BIANCA
WAITE AND
JULIA WOLTON
Q180 Ms Buck: In the last couple
of years, somebody will know, you have got these neighbourhood
police teams, you have got beat officers?
Hayley: Yes.
Q181 Ms Buck: Is that something that
you know about? Do you talk to them? Is there a lot of stop and
search that you are on the receiving end of and you think it is
unfair?
Dexter: It is always there. It
is worse for the younger people because they come on the estate
and they expect people to respect them without showing them respect
first. In Lambeth, if you are a policeman, like, or these community
officers, they think that they are police officers, they have
got all the powers, so when they come on the estate they think
they can do anything basically, but it is a bit worse though.
Q182 Ms Buck: Is that how they behave?
Dexter: That is how some behave.
From what I have seen, that is how some behave.
Leon: From my perspective, I am
not going to say that there are absolutely no positive police
officers, because there are positive police officers out there,
not just when they see people get arrested for doing the bad things,
that actually want to help people that are being arrested for
doing bad things as well, if you see what I am saying, but from
living in Lambeth, with my perspective, there has been a lot of
negative policing. You are getting stopped up to 20 times in a
month and that.
Q183 Ms Buck: You have?
Leon: Yes, being stopped up to
20 times, or even more, in a month. So, to me, that is making
me just feel negative about the police. They are not out there
trying to stop everything close, if you see what I am saying.
They will stop me 20 times in a month. I have not done nothing
once on the 20 times in a month, and I have been stopped 20 times
in a month.
Q184 Ms Buck: Is that because they
know you and they are just keeping a tab on you?
Leon: It is police that do not
even know me.
Q185 Mr Winnick: The police say that
colour does not come into it, this is their argument, and they
make no distinction whether black, white, Asian. What is your
view on that? Do you believe that black youngsters are picked
on more?
Dexter: I think, yes. If you come
to Lambeth it is like almost, not guaranteed there but that is
in your mind, that you are going to get stopped by a police officer,
that is how you think, there is nearly a guarantee. You think,
"When I come Lambeth I am going to get stopped by police."
That is how young people think round Lambeth.
Q186 Mr Winnick: Are you saying,
Dexter, that the police are not particularly concerned with white
youngsters, that they would not apprehend them? Is that what you
are saying?
Dexter: I am not saying that.
I am just saying that when it is young black people, the ego to
stop us, I do not know why they want to stop us so much, that
is how it is.
Q187 Mr Winnick: You think there
is an element of racism that has continued?
Dexter: Yes, that is what I think.
Q188 Mr Winnick: Is that your view
is well?
Bianca: Yes. They should not be,
but I still believe there is a lot of racist police controlling
the community in Brixton and Lambeth as such, and I have seen
examples for myself to know that that is still coming on.
Q189 Mr Winnick: Would you challenge
the responsibility of the police to try and protect the lawful
community, whether it is white, black, or whatever, it makes no
difference, from those who are out to break the law? Do you not
believe that is the responsibility of the police?
Bianca: Yes, if they was doing
that, that is fine. Well, they are not.
Hayley: Are you asking—.
What are you asking? You are saying the responsibility of the
police is to prevent people from breaking the law?
Q190 Mr Winnick: Quite.
Hayley: But how do you know if
someone is going to break law? You do not know. I could not look
at Leon and say, "He is going to break the law." You
cannot look at someone and say that they are going to break the
law. Once someone has broken the law that is when the police are
meant to come out. I understand what you are saying about prevention
in a sense, but you cannot really see someone or know that they
are going to break the law. How do you identify someone who is
going to break the law? What does that person look like?
Q191 Mr Winnick: Would you be happier
if there were more police officers who were black?
Hayley: I would be happier if
the police spent more time doing their job rather than provoking
young people, black, white, Chinese, Asian or whatever, and causing
trouble and stopping and searching them all the time for no reason.
I would be happy if the police done that.
Q192 Mr Benyon: Leading on from that
question, what about schools, work, the Court Service, other organisations
that you may have sought to come across. Have you found any institutional
racism in any of those organisations?
Dexter: The courts.
Q193 Mr Benyon: In what way?
Dexter: There is large racism
there. Young black men get sentenced more than white people. That
is what I have seen basically. It is harder. That is what I have
seen.
Q194 Mr Benyon: You honestly believe
that?
Dexter: I believe. Not only do
I believe, I know. That is how it is. From what I have seen that
is how it is. I have experienced that as well, so that is why
I know.
Q195 Chairman: So you believe that
for the same crime you would be more likely to get a prison sentence
than a community punishment or a longer sentence rather than a
short one.
Dexter: I am talking about what
I have been through.
Q196 Chairman: What was your experience?
What happened to you that makes you feel the system was biased?
Dexter: I done a robbery with
no weapons and no violence, basically, and I got three years.
I am in jail and there is white boys that have done knife robberies
in there that have got two years and six months and them type
of sentences there. The thing is that I changed before I done
that anyhow, I was doing different stuff before I went to jail,
so I was stopping crime basically, and they still sent me to jail
for that few years for some stupid thing.
Q197 Mr Benyon: I wondered if Jason
wanted to come in?
Jason: There is people that go
to prison for possession of firearms with bullets in it and get
the same sentence we served. How does that work? We are sent down
for street robbery and they get three years for a firearm, and
it has got bullets, and they get the same, and then you have got
people that get manslaughter and get three and a half years, whereas
you get three years for street robbery. The people did not die,
but you get some kind of three and a half years for manslaughter.
How does it work?
Q198 Martin Salter: I was very interested
in what you were saying about the police. I am a Member of Parliament
and people are always telling me, "You should be doing this,
that and the other", and these are normally people who would
not necessarily put themselves in the firing line at all. You
are obviously bright young people. Would you ever consider joining
the police.
Bianca: No.
Jason: No.
Dexter: No.
Leon: No.
Q199 Mr Winnick: You might have some
difficulty.
Hayley: That is not what I want
to do. I do not want to join the police. I work with the police,
some officers, and I have been having meetings with the Superintendent
of Brixton to improve the policing, but I do not wish to be part
of the police because that is not my dream of what I want to be.
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