Examination of Witnesses (Questions 240
- 258)
TUESDAY 19 DECEMBER 2006
JASON LORD
COVER, HAYLEY
LITTEK, DEXTER
PADMORE, LEON
SIMMONDS, BIANCA
WAITE AND
JULIA WOLTON
Q240 Mr Winnick: I have to say that
my son listens to the music and, as far as I know, has not descended
into criminality, so you may well have a point there. Apart from
music and so on, do any of you believe that young black people,
as opposed to other young people, have particular reasons to get
involved in crime. After all, there are white youngsters from
broken homes and all kinds of related problems connected with
that. Are there any particular reasons why young black people
should get involved in criminality as opposed to, say, white ones?
Leon: Any colour can get into
criminality, because everyone is human. Everyone gets into the
same problems and has the same things. I do not see it as just
black people who would get into criminality like that, if you
see what I am saying.
Hayley: I agree with Leon to an
extent, but there is not a lot of black role models for young
black people to look up to. Like in Parliament, there is only
a couple of black people, the majority of people in Parliament
are white people, which is not a problem but it is the fact that
young black people do not always have positive role models. There
are not a lot of black teachers and not a lot of black people
in higher positions—
Q241 Mr Winnick: Including MPs?
Hayley:—to motivate black
people to grow up and be something with themselves, because if
the black people are not teachers, whatever, obviously what are
their parents? A lot of black people's parents could be cleaners
or just doing something that is not really much of a job, nothing
much to look up to, and if you have not got a parent to look up
to, who is the next person you look up to? If there is no teachers
to look up to, there is no-one in government to look up to, you
are really lost because you cannot really get higher than the
government and you cannot see no-one, no reflection of yourself
doing anything that makes a difference, so I do not think that
black people have enough.
Bianca: I agree. Yes, there are
people that will look at that and think, "There is no way
I could be up there." That is what that means.
Q242 Mr Benyon: I think you probably
could actually.
Bianca: There is black people
that look up and think, "I could go for politics, I could
deal with people." I know at the end of the day I am not
going to get there because the system is not made for me. This
is what black people think. As Hayley has said, there is no role
model. There is, but the role models that do make it, they are
more stuck up; as a black person they are more stuck up: "I
have done it myself, I have made it, let us get out."
Hayley: A lot of black people
that you see in high positions, they kind of talk posh. They are
not the same as a black person. They are not the same as me. Whereas
a rapper will talk and use the same language as I would kind of
use, when you have got a black person that is in a higher position,
they are talking the Queen's English and they talk posh and their
noses are stuck up in the air. That is not me at all, I cannot
see a reflection of myself, but there is also some racism within
certain authorities which means that people of different cultures—I
do not want to just say black people because people who could
be racist also do not like Asian people, but it limits people
to where they are going, but I think black people also fight against
themselves a lot. They put themselves down or they have been put
down by other people and they let that get to them, but it is
up to them as well to stand up and do something with themselves,
because if they do not see a black person in Parliament, then
they should get up and be that black person in Parliament.
Chairman: I am going to say to the Committee,
our next group of witnesses have not arrived yet, so if you do
not mind staying on for a few minutes, you are being really helpful,
we have got quite a few more questions we would like to ask you.
If that is okay that would be great. Can I bring Margaret in.
Q243 Margaret Moran: Operation Black
Vote was excellent. I can see some potential MPs here today and
they do great work. A lot of us work with young black people that
are interested in getting involved in politics with Operation
Black Vote, so there is a quick plug. The question I want to ask
is coming back; it was kind of about the music but not specifically.
Last week in Luton a young black man shot three other black youths
in the town centre. There is no territorial issue there; it was
not on an estate. The suggestion is that there was a rave going
on, a party going on, and there was something going down there
which was not to do with the music itself except that all of these
youths were involved in this party. Tell me what was happening
there. Was there drugs?
Bianca: Were they tested for drugs?
Q244 Margaret Moran: Oh, they would
have been, yes.
Bianca: Because most of these
people that let off these shots, like, I am quite 90% sure that
they was taking Ecstasy that night, and that makes their mind
do overtime. It is becoming a regular thing for these young black
people that are high up there, these people that carry guns. It
is becoming a regular thing for them to take Ecstasy. Obviously,
that controls your mind at the same time as well. I am not saying
that is an excuse because it is not, and then shooting up people
and that, I do not think it was anything deliberate. I just think
it was, "This is me and I can do it. Everybody look what
I can do". It is just they are all there trying to build
up their status and name once again, not that it was worth it.
Q245 Mrs Dean: I wonder if any of
you would like to say what you think are the most important things
we can do to stop young people getting involved in crime in the
first place.
Hayley: You need more things for
young people to do, more activities, educational activities, more
things that they enjoy and that. A lot of people enjoy—boys,
constructions and plumbing, things that are educational but you
do not always get in school, and also do not stop at construction
and plumbing. Give them, like, MPs and politicians, teach them
about that, give them more information about—yeah, more
options, more higher options as well, not just garden nursery
and construction. We can do better than that. We need more stuff,
educational but informal ways of doing it out of school times.
There should be more tolerance in schools to keep people in schools,
more work within schools. Young people work better with young
people, so more young people need to be working with young people,
like, the in-betweens, like mentors and youth workers. They need
to be more involved in this, there need to be more youth clubs.
Education needs to be much better because education is just lacking
as well. We need to find different ways of working with young
people. In some primary schools, I saw it on the news the other
day, they are working outdoors, doing science lessons and that
out of doors, and it helps. Grades and that have improved because
they are thinking how to work with the young people, how to get
the better grades rather than just doing everything in the usual
way.
Q246 Mrs Dean: Dexter, have you got
any ideas?
Dexter: Yes. I think you need
more X-it programmes.
Q247 Mrs Dean: You are giving it
a plug, are you not? Leon, have you got any ideas?
Leon: Yes. I would just say more
youth clubs in the estates and more things for young people to
do, basically, because there is just nothing for young people
to do out of school hours.
Q248 Mrs Dean: Bianca?
Bianca: If you have a programme
that shows that it works and, to take as an example, in Lambeth,
you can show them statistics that people that are involved in
the programme, in X-it, and they had an officer say that all these
people either have an urge for offending or have offended and
when they started this programme they did not offend and after
this programme none of them have gone on to re-offend. That shows
you it is something that is working. It is something that works
and if you can show Lambeth that that is something that has worked,
why would you cut funding for it? It is hard to get funding for
it. It works but there is just no funding for it so it is not
going to be able to carry on. I just think funding should be up
there to be used more.
Q249 Mrs Dean: Jason, have you got
anything to add to that?
Jason: I just agree with Bianca,
more funding and there needs to be more of that because basically
we go our ways to make our money which is obviously going to be
removed. I do not think it is being funded properly.
Q250 Mrs Dean: So more things to
do for young people to stop them getting into crime and X-it to
get them out. Do any of you want to add to that and say what made
a big difference to you?
Bianca: Housing, and 80% of the
jobs as well, and options and that, because obviously options
lead on to jobs, but having good housing as well. You cannot get
a job and be stable if you are not living in a stable environment,
so housing needs to be sorted out because there is too much young
children that are out there that are homeless. If they are going
to apply for a job and they have got to send a letter back, you
are looking at five different addresses where any letter can be
sent because they are sleeping at friends, and of course they
do not want to go into social services and they can't get nowhere
till they are 16, and even that now is cutting as well because
so much people are trying to pull it. I think there needs to be
more support within housing and young people. I do not know if
there should be a more formal structure to go through but I still
think there should be more help with housing because young people
are not getting help with their housing any more and there is
too much young people homeless, but no-one don't think they are
homeless because they are staying around, and that there is just
not stable. I mean, you cannot get nowhere if you are not stable.
Hayley: And support in prisons
as well. Young people in prisons, they need a lot of support and
also when they come out they need to have something that they
can go to. I know they have the YOT but everyone has bad opinions
about the YOT. When they come back to it there is always something
negative to say, but no-one seems to do nothing about it, no-one
wants to change nothing, they do not want to listen to young people's
views and that. Within the prisons and especially when they come
out they need a lot of support from housing, from education, from
jobs. People need to be more open-minded because not everyone
that goes to prison was always guilty of the crime and sometimes
they have had time to think about it and want to make a change
but the options ain't out there for them to be able to make that
change, so that needs to be thought about.
Q251 Mr Benyon: Crime is actually
a male problem. There is way more percentage of young males across
all ethnicities being convicted than there are women. Why do you
think this is?
Hayley: Because women are smarter
than men.
Q252 Mr Benyon: I thought you might
say that!
Hayley: Men just get caught. Men
seem to relax more. After a while they just tend to relax and
think that they will not get caught.
Bianca: And women still stay on
the ball because there is a lot of women that do as much crime
but they do not get caught.
Hayley: With women as well we
have less to prove than a male has to prove. A male feels he has
got something to prove, so he is more willing to go a bit further,
the extra mile to go and do something and then go and brag about
it.
Q253 Chairman: What about the men?
Dexter: I think the men are smarter
than women.
Q254 Chairman: But, just to pursue
Richard's point, why do you think it is that the men get more
involved in crime? Is it that they feel they need to prove themselves?
You were talking earlier there about status.
Leon: They need to prove themselves.
It is a status thing.
Q255 Mr Benyon: What difference do
you think the threat of being caught by the police makes? I am
not specifically directing this at any of you, but in your experience
and your mates' and people you know, what difference does being
caught by the police and going to prison make? Dexter, you have
been to prison. Is it a deterrent?
Dexter: For me it was pointless,
basically I changed before I went to prison in that I done the
X-it programme before I went to prison. Within the X-it programme
I did not offend, so basically it showed that I was changing,
but, like, when I went to court, even though I had a police officer
on my side and Julia and other people saying I am getting a job
and I have stopped offending, they still sent me down, so I am
thinking, "I am going to prison now". It had no effect
on me. It was just like, "There is nothing there to tell
you to stop doing crime". It is the pulls in life basically.
It is the pulls in life.
Leon: It is like not a youth club
now but like a big youth club of criminals.
Hayley: And they just meet each
other, discuss with each other what they are going to do when
they come out. They just make more links. That is why prison is
just so stupid. It is a stupid idea.
Mr Benyon: But it must be right for some
of you. Come on.
Q256 Chairman: Jason, what do you
say?
Jason: Vulnerable guys, they find
it easy to go there and they do not want to go back there, but
when you have come through stuff and you go there it is just that.
You go there, you are around the same people for how long your
sentence is, and the only thing you are resorting to is connections,
so I think, "If I link him when I get out of here what can
we do to make money?", and that is how it is. So basically
you are going to find other ways to meet them or you go in for
something and then you find more business partners. Everyone that
is in jail, that is someone with a background which is around
drugs and guns and all that. You just find more connections, so
it is pointless getting a job.
Q257 Mr Benyon: So what would be
a better deterrent than prison?
Hayley: Not referring them to
courses but giving them options of courses that are proven to
benefit people that are doing criminal activity, like the X-it
programme changes these two.
Q258 Mr Benyon: I have got to get
re-elected next time and if I was to go in front of the electorate
and say if somebody commits a robbery they should be put on a
course—I do think you are right: they should be put on a
course but there should be some element of punishment.
Leon: I say jail should just be
not more stricter but something where it will help them make somebody
go to jail and sit down and think, "I have done wrong. I
do not want to be back in here", but people nowadays will
think, no, they go to jail and see their friends and be like,
"Oh, how are you? All right, mate?", and then they will
be, like, "Yeah, let's talk", and that is what I am
saying, that it needs to be more effective.
Bianca: Not all jails are like
that. When you go through the jail system, obviously, if you get
kicked out of jail and kicked out of jail you move further and
further away, and as black people you move further and further
away and there are things called racist prisons, as I quote. In
places like Feltham, that is a holiday camp. Everybody goes in
there, comes out, "Yeah, what man went jail there?".
It is all fun, and they come back out to do the same thing. It
is fun.
Chairman: We are going to Feltham in
a few weeks' time to meet some of the people who are there and
we will carry on this discussion with them there and think about
prison and how it is working. Our next set of witnesses are here
so we need to end this session. Can I thank you very much indeed.
You have been really helpful. Sorry if we intruded in some of
the personal areas due to a misunderstanding, but you have been
very helpful indeed and we are grateful to you for your time.
Thanks a lot.
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