Examination of Witnesses (Questions 280
- 299)
TUESDAY 19 DECEMBER 2006
CURTIS BURK,
CEAN JOHNSON
AND ANDREW
PORTER
Q280 Mr Winnick: And you do not have
any sort of sympathy for such elderly people who may well, without
any justification, fear youngsters, black or white, wearing hoods?
Andrew: They probably fear them
because they have probably been robbed before or not, but in a
way I do, because if I put myself in their situation I would not
cross the road. I would walk on doing my business, I would just
do what I am doing and go home. They are scared if they are just
like—
Curtis: They cannot help it.
Andrew: If they are racists, if
they do not like it they do not like it. It is up to them.
Q281 Mr Winnick: There is fear of
crime and perhaps because of my age I would understand that. The
attitude you adopt you have explained is because you are 18 or
19. Do you think there is any particular reason why crime is likely
to be committed by young black people more than young white people?
Curtis: No.
Andrew: Not really, because I
know more white people that are going out robbing houses and cars
than I know blacks, but in the same way I can say that for blacks
as well. I know more blacks selling drugs than whites. It is not
really the colour, because you are black you are going to go and
rob somebody. It is not really that. It is because of who you
are, who you grew up with or what you want to do, white or black
or Asian. It does not really matter. You do what you do.
Q282 Chairman: Can you explain something,
because this has come up before? What you said is absolutely right.
That is what the figures say. All types of crime are committed
by all types of people but there are some crimes like burglary
or nicking cars which are more likely to be done by young white
people, and certain types of crime like street robbery or drug
dealing where black young people feature more. Can you give us
any reason why there should be that difference?
Andrew: What do you mean?
Q283 Chairman: It is what you just
said, that you know more young white people who do burglary and
robbing cars and more young black people selling drugs. It is
not obvious why there should be any difference at all. You all
know young people. They are all doing crime. We have been struck
by this because it has come up in other sessions. If you look
at the figures there are different types of crime that different
groups of young people do and I just wondered if you had any idea
why that might be.
Andrew: Let us say there are more
black youths selling drugs. Let us say he knows me and I was selling
drugs, and he is, like half caste, black as well. I do not really
know in the street how they sell drugs, but I get people coming
up to me, like, "Have you got a drug? Have you got anything?",
and, you know, because I am black and I am tall and I have got
my hood up or something, they probably think I am a dealer, but
in a way the black person and the other black person probably
want to be like the dealer because they can relate in a way. I
do not know if it makes sense but they can relate in a way; that
is why. Probably that is why more white people are committing
burglary and robbing cars. I do not really know. This is the next
one, you have a car. They probably got it easy, all through their
life got it easy and probably—I do not know, Italian or
whatever, he is, like, thinking—I know people who are getting
pocket money at, say, £50 a week and it is, like, really
not enough. They are still going out and robbing stuff to get
more money, so they probably think that—
Q284 Chairman: I do not want to put
words in your mouth but, as far as you are concerned, it may be
that if people expect people to do certain types of crime then
that is what they will tend to do?
Andrew: In a way but not really
in that way.
Q285 Mr Winnick: There is a perception,
a feeling, which may not have any basis in reality, that where
knives are being carried by youngsters, and adults, as we all
know, also carry guns, but certainly young people, there is no
doubt about that, it is more likely to be young black people than
white people, not that young white people do not carry knives
but it is more likely that they will be black ones. If that is
so, and it may not be the position, would that be because of a
feeling of protection or having respect amongst your fellow youngsters
or what?
Andrew: It could be like this.
When I was in school, someone might hit me and I hit him back,
but the teacher always sees me hit him and they will not see him.
It is like black people and white people carry knives but you
know more black people that are carrying them than white. There
probably is more white people that is carrying them than blacks
but you just know the blacks who are carrying them. You do not
know the rest. They probably know me. They probably say, "Oh,
well, there are more white people carrying them than blacks".
It just depends on the people you know rather than the people
you see.
Curtis: You do not know. It is
just a guess.
Margaret Moran: We could not pass this
session without referring to the fact that Nottingham is very
well known for gun culture. There are lots of guns in Luton where
I am from as well. You can get a gun from a gym for £30.
If somebody that you knew wanted to get a gun how easy would that
be and how many people do you really know that have guns? Why
do they need them? What are they using them for?
Q286 Chairman: I just want to say
that you cannot get into trouble for what you say at these sessions.
It is part of the rules of coming to Parliament that you can be
as honest as you want to.
Curtis: It depends who you know,
because I do not really know too many people that carry guns other
than just I will know a few people that have guns in their crib
or under their bed or something like that.
Andrew: Yes. I have never really
known someone who carried a gun on the road and I do not know
people who can get it, but people, yeah, who have probably got
a gun that ask, they are either selling weed and they have got
a huge amount of money. They have got drugs or whatever they have
got it in, and then they have probably got them and they are probably
trying to protect themselves. If they are not selling drugs they
are probably dealing, giving them some mixed false merchandise
or whatever, and they have got a lot of it and they have got a
lot of money and they want to protect themselves or they are just
stupid; they want to blend in with the crowd.
Q287 Margaret Moran: Could I pick
up something you said earlier as well? You talked about lots of
different youngsters doing crime. It has been suggested that the
gang/crew culture, gang culture particularly, is extending into
the Asian community. Do you see that? Do you have any involvement
in that?
Curtis: Around my area I see gangs
and gangs of Asian and people, to be honest. It is like, when
they walk past us sometimes they walk past as if, like, we are
pieces of shit and stuff like that. It is like they are always
the ones that want to cause the trouble now, and then when it
all kicks off it is just all—
Andrew: I do not really call it
gangs. I just call it a bunch of friends. I call Lucien, he just
came to call for me or just chew my ear, "What about you?",
"Oh, let's fuck off and go and get Leon", or, "Let's
go and call for Josh", or, "Let's go and call for Curtis",
or something. You are just all friends together. You probably
get four in a group here or some of them in a group watching you
and, like, staring at you hard and saying they want to rob you
or they want to beat you up or something, and the rest will be
just like the business. It is just a few. It is not a gang. It
is just like a group of friends, people just doing what they want
to do. You probably do get gangs but mainly there is a group of
friends and some of them just like watching faces, beefing or
causing trouble and the rest of them are just minding their business.
Q288 Chairman: There may be a difference
between one place and another because we have talked to other
groups of young people who have said that there are gangs or crews
and it is all about territory. You cannot go to a certain area
if you are not part of that crew or that gang.
Curtis: Not necessarily.
Q289 Chairman: Is it like that in
Nottingham or is it different?
Andrew: People who say that, yeah,
they are a pain but they are not from, like, say, people from
St Ann's and Radford and Meadows. They are the areas where there
is all the beef and you are not allowed to go in there. People
who say stuff like that would be from Bulwall or Woollerton or
somewhere like that, not in the area. They just say that because
they have heard from people who say that, like saying, look, I
am from Radford. I have got no trouble with St Ann's or Meadows.
I know people from St Ann's, I know people from Meadows and I
go anywhere I want. I am not really bothered. I never really got
started in a way.
Q290 Chairman: There is nowhere in
Nottingham you would not go?
Andrew: No, there is nowhere.
People, they are stupid. They come in the area and people, say,
St Ann's and Meadows will be, like, having a feud and then shout,
"SB" or something just to stir it up and that is why
they get hurt, yeah, because they either cause it to themselves
or they did that, ran off and next day a person came by minding
their business and they just get done for what the other person
did.
Q291 Bob Russell: Andrew, we have
been told that you have got the Duke of Edinburgh's Bronze Award
through the Fire Brigade and are going for Silver, congratulations
on that, and that you are going to do a week's residential course
with the Army. How did you get involved with those two activities?
Andrew: YIP.
Chairman: The Youth Inclusion Programme.
Q292 Bob Russell: So that is how
you first got involved?
Andrew: Yes.
Q293 Bob Russell: I now want to ask
all three of you a question that I have been putting to others
that have come to give evidence. Were any of you ever involved
with recognised youth organisations earlier on in your lives?
Andrew: When I was in primary
school I used to be—
Q294 Bob Russell: I was talking about
things like the Cadets or the Boys' Brigade or the Scouts.
Andrew: No.
Q295 Bob Russell: You were not? Are
those organisations active in your area?
Cean: Yes, I was in the Boys'
Brigade.
Andrew: There is somebody, not
really like that. I would say on our road there are different
types of people and I go there and look and then just the people
I do not really know or do not really hang around with them sort
of people, so I do not really go.
Q296 Bob Russell: So it is the organisation
you are with now that has drawn you into the Duke of Edinburgh's
Award Scheme and looking at the Army?
Andrew: Yes.
Q297 Bob Russell: Why do you think
that young people first get involved with the criminal justice
system? What was the biggest factor or influence that took you
down that route?
Andrew: Do you know why? The people
who work there, they have been in the same situation and they
came from the same point of view and just stuck to it. It is not
like these people who have been talking do not know what they
are talking about. He knows what he is talking about. He is from
where I am from and he has been doing what I am doing now, that
is what I am saying, so you really connect, and then you just
go through it.
Q298 Bob Russell: Is that the same
with you too, you just get caught up with what is going on around
you? Did you voluntarily go out to get involved in the criminal
justice system or did you get caught up with others?
Andrew: No, I did not get caught
up with others. It was voluntary. That is when Dinah said, "Do
you want to come and learn?", and I said, "Yes".
Q299 Bob Russell: Have your families
had any role in your lives?
Andrew: Yes, the problem is they
do. You do not really have to listen to them. You just do what
you do.
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