Examination of Witnesses (Questions 400
- 417)
TUESDAY 16 JANUARY 2007
MS SUKHVINDER
STUBBS AND
MR MARC
EDWARDS
Q400 Margaret Moran: In the very
useful report and summary that you submitted you indicated that
stop and search was a major factor in the involvement of young
people in the criminal justice system. How much of that is the
reality for the young people in your project, for example, as
opposed to perception? I say that because in my constituency of
Luton I held a meeting with all of the black youth organisations
and the facts as presented by the police compared with the perception
among youths of the extent of stop and search were radically different.
Do you have any experience of that?
Mr Edwards: From my perspective,
based on direct communication with young people who have been
stopped by the police a lot of them feel that they are being victimised.
You have to understand what that does psychologically to a young
person, especially how they perceive the criminal justice agencies.
If at a young age one perceives oneself as being victimised by
an agency it will create a barrier between oneself and that agency.
That is where police and community relations are severed; that
is the point at which young people start to turn away from the
positive framework of living. Obviously, the law enforcement agencies
are not just there to police communities; they are also supposed
to represent peace, safety and a harmonious community so that
people can feel at ease and not be in fear. But if they are victimising
these young people and it is felt that police officers are against
them, what type of influence will those officers have on those
young people to try to turn them away from crime, even though
their role is to police? What message is that giving to young
people?
Ms Stubbs: A couple of years ago
I chaired a race inquiry for Greenwich which was 10 years after
the murder of Stephen Lawrence. As part of that inquiry I spoke
directly to some of the young people in Eltham and different wards
of Greenwich but also to police officers. I do not know whether
you have taken evidence from police, but the officers we spoke
to felt quite justified in targeting black people; they felt that
the statistics bore them out, but what they did not recognise
was the way in which their behaviour contributed to that breakdown
in community, loss of trust and feeling of harassment. The response
is almost what you might expect; it generates the sort of thing
with which they are starting off. They are to some extent stoking
the problem.
Mr Edwards: Operational officers
were quite honest in stating their position. There are a number
of traumas in Birmingham at the moment with lots of stops and
searches because of violence in the community. The police officers
who are doing the stops and checks—this comes from their
own mouths—say that when they are looking into cars and
at the ethnic make-up of the occupants, whether they are white,
black or Asian, they decide on that basis whether or not they
stop individuals. It is not done according to whether they look
suspicious or anything like that; it is more to do with the colour
of their skin. That is troubling. If police officers have that
mindset and perception, I wonder what the wider society is thinking.
I know that that is fed by the media. Obviously, police officers
are saying that they might find some guns in a car with black
guys but if they stop white or Asian guys they might be wasting
their time. Obviously, young black adults are being victimised
when it comes to stop and search, and that contributes to other
factors. If more of them are being victimised and stopped and
searched they will contribute to the statistical register of crimes.
Ms Stubbs: Referring to the statistics,
if one takes section 60, which is the catch-all stop and search
power, nationally 24% of them are carried out on black people.
There is a particular problem in the West Midlands. Therefore,
there is specific targeting of black communities that is not borne
out by the number of arrests that ensue.
Q401 Margaret Moran: You referred
to the way in which it was done. Is the issue to do more with
the way in which it is done? Obviously, people want to be protected
in their neighbourhoods and if there is a lot of gun crime associated
with black youth in a particular area you may justifiably say
that the police ought to do more and the wider community would
be asking questions as to why they were not focusing on it. Is
the problem the way in which stop and search is dealt with, or
the fact of stop and search itself? Following on from that, we
heard earlier from Dr Sewell that in a sense it was a self-fulfilling
prophesy: a lot of black youth might be committing "street
crime" and therefore, being on the street, would be more
visible. Surely, if that is the case is it not more likely that
they would be picked up?
Mr Edwards: I would say that it
is more to do with the circumstances and what is happening in
the particular areas; it is also to do with contextualised scenarios.
You are looking at street robbery and stop and search. Obviously,
the police will target young people if they see them hanging out,
but that is another argument. Socially, there is a generic problem
within inner-city areas of exclusion, social isolation and the
facility for young people to be engaged. There is a strong presence
by young people when hanging out on the streets. To some people
in the community that is very intimidating. Whether they are black
or a bunch of white kids is irrelevant. Who is to blame? First,
we have to try to create some engagement mechanisms so that young
people are not on the streets. Second, the way in which the police
approach young people and the etiquette they use in stopping and
searching them is very demeaning. We live in a slightly ageist
society where adults tends to look down on young people. In particular,
where people with authority have a legal framework to function
in their jobs they have power to say to a young person, "Can
you stop there, please, and empty your pockets?" I am not
sure it is right for a police officer to stop and search a young
person in front of the public. I do not think that is the way
forward. I have spoken to young people directly and I have been
at consultation events with police and young people. The feedback
from young people is that they feel as though the police are taunting
and aggravating them. They feel that the police can search them
but in a more appropriate fashion. They would feel better if they
were taken to the police station and searched behind the scenes.
Q402 Margaret Moran: It is the way
in which it is done?
Mr Edwards: Yes. To empty out
your pockets in front of people is very embarrassing. If you are
stopped on a street corner and some of your mum's friends are
walking past that is the start of criminalisation. Remember, there
are onlookers in the community who will say, "There's another
bunch of black guys being stopped." It will fulfil the stereotype.
Q403 Margaret Moran: I fully commend
recommendation 4.1(b) of your report about community forums for
youth. I think that is an important way forward, and perhaps we
need to put it on record. How do you think that proposals for
the increased use of ASBOs, or super-ASBOs, will impact on any
of this?
Mr Edwards: I work with a lot
of young people who are subject to ASBOs at the moment. I think
that in the right hands ASBOs are a very useful mechanism to divert
young people away. At the same time, in the wrong hands it can
be very discriminatory. You have to look at the different cultures
of young people. Some young people hang out on the street but
they are not necessarily criminals. There are some who are criminals,
but all young people are being categorised and labelled under
the same framework, which is not really fair. Some police officers
use the framework of ASBOs to move young people on and disperse
them away from areas of congregation, but at the same time some
young people say, "We haven't done anything wrong, so why
are we getting ASBOs?" To me, it is a subtle way of criminalising
young people. It may not be a custodial sentence, but at the same
time it is still something that appears on their record. We need
to look at other mechanisms to divert young people away from crime
rather than criminalise them.
Ms Stubbs: I agree with that.
I think that it is a form of legislative creep. One can now be
committing a crime for not turning up for the order. It is a form
of criminalisation. Referring to the previous point about stop
and search, some of the projects that we support are doing things
like helping youngsters to understand their rights when they are
stopped and searched. One project in which we are involved is
to make sure that youngsters have cards to let them know their
rights under those circumstances so they do not get into more
trouble from either just resisting or not behaving appropriately.
Q404 Mr Browne: You were here during
the previous evidence session when Professor John's report was
discussed. One particular point raised by Mr Winnick was that
in one in three gun murders both the victim and suspect were black.
Therefore, on top of that one has to put the gun murders where
the perpetrators are black but the victims are white, Asian or
any other ethnicity. The black population of Britain is about
3% or 4%. Are you seriously saying that the police, even if they
know that one third of all gun murders are black people killing
other black people, should restrict themselves only to 3% of stop
and searches of black people? Are you even certain that black
parents who are worried about the safety of their children would
be reassured to hear you make that case?
Ms Stubbs: You can have these
blanket statistics which sound very grand, but you have to link
them to the location.
Q405 Mr Browne: Do you dispute them?
Ms Stubbs: I do not dispute it;
I say that one should contextualise it. If you think about crimes
committed in Handsworth where the majority of people are black
or Muslim the majority of those committing them will be of that
ethnicity. The first thing to do is think about the areas where
these people live. That is where I take issue to some extent with
the evidence of the previous witnesses. I believe that the local
environment and poverty of the area are an issue, so to take those
statistics out of context in an area where people live does not
do justice to the circumstances.
Q406 Mr Browne: That is not the question.
Ms Stubbs: It is related to it.
Q407 Chairman: To press the point,
you have a situation where gun use appears to be—I do not
think anyone has challenged the statistics—much more prevalent
among young black people than other groups in the community. If
the police are trying to keep other young black people alive by
getting those guns I am not quite clear whether you are saying
that, nevertheless, for the sake of the statistics a large number
of non-black people should be stopped and searched to get the
statistics right, or whether you are saying that despite the high
level of mortality from gun crimes it would be better not to do
the stops. What do you say would be the acceptable strategy?
Ms Stubbs: I think you need to
let me finish this point. Maybe I need to draw a picture for you
and make it more anecdotal. In a place like Handsworth, Aston
and Lozells there are lots of groups like Mothers Against Gangs.
There is a lot of activity in that area which is trying to create
a safe environment. Those same people do not necessarily turn
to the police; they do not necessarily see the police as their
protectors. This was the point I made earlier. Certain communities
do not feel that they are being protected by the police; they
feel that they are being policed by the police. One tiny example
of the complete breakdown of relations between the police and
community is a meeting that Marc and his young people organised
for us as part of the evidence for our commission. These were
young people who were at risk of offending and were potentially
involved in the sorts of crimes that you are talking about. The
police turned up in full uniform and referred to each other by
their formal titles. There was no effort to relate to or understand
the community and to deal with the problem.
Q408 Chairman: It would be of use
to the Committee—we have touched on the point in several
evidence sessions—to know what type of policing strategy,
whether or not it involves stop and search, that targets a real
crime issue and also produces the community and police relations
that you are looking for you think would be acceptable?
Mr Edwards: In a nutshell, it
would be equality in operational policing. When I say that I mean
that the police force in the context of the community serves various
compartments within that community but not in the same way. If
a white family phones the police—this is not necessarily
reality; it is sometimes the perception—the response that
it gets will be different from that of a black family. The black
community believes that it is not protected by the police. I am
probably one of the lead experts when it comes to gun crime and
community intervention around that, so I will give you some history.
Ten years ago when we started to see the new phenomenon of gun
crime in relation to black on black the police presence was quite
different from what it is now. Because of media attention and
the noise made in the community regarding these shootings we have
seen a change in the dynamics and how the police are depicted.
In the past we have seen shootings between the black communities
and no type of intervention. We have seen convictions that have
not been sustained. This has made young people say that the police
will not protect them and so they will protect themselves. That
was why in the mid-1990s and up to 2000 we saw a lot of young
people walking around with firearms, especially within the black
community.
Q409 Chairman: Whilst that history
and those failures may well be true—I do not want to challenge
your account of them—it does not quite answer the question
about acceptable police strategies now.
Mr Edwards: The paradigm change
would have to be by the police; it would have to be seen by the
community. It cannot be a document or policy; it has to be evidenced
in the life of the community. The black community would have to
see the police on their side as an agency of assistance for them
to be stakeholders or partakers of that dimension. They would
also have to feel protected so that if they phoned the police
and told them about an incident to do with firearms the police
would respond in an effective way according to their cultural
needs. Another issue is that the police are there but they are
not dealing with sub-communities in a culturally sensitive fashion.
It is nothing to do with the ethnic background of the police officers;
I am talking about cultural understanding of the communities that
they are serving.
Q410 Mr Winnick: We are looking at
the question of how far we as a community, of course including
blacks, can prevent young black people with whom this inquiry
is concerned from becoming involved in the criminal justice system.
Ms Stubbs, you said that you had some differences with the two
witnesses who gave evidence earlier, but do you question the fact
that in one of every three gun murders both victims and suspects
are black? The answer is really yes or no, is it not?
Ms Stubbs: What I am saying is
that neither the victim nor the perpetrator trusts the police
to help.
Q411 Mr Winnick: One is aware of
the allegation that the police are not fair. I am sure that both
of you take the view that there should be more black people involved
in the police, which would not do any harm by any means. Do you
also accept what Professor John said in his written evidence,
about which we asked him, that very often black people, although
obviously not exclusively—as he pointed out, there are enough
white people in gangs—decide to be in a gang in order, in
his words, to enjoy the power, the thrill, the danger and rewards?
Ms Stubbs: My colleague is probably
better placed to answer that.
Mr Edwards: I would say that young
people are involved in gangs because of a sense of belonging,
but it also has to do with the dimension of social exclusion.
If young people are socially isolated—young people involved
in gangs are—they create their own network and function
with their own groups. Obviously, because for most of the time
these youngsters are outside school and the services they are
not getting the assistance and education they need, so normally
they are economically and socially deprived. That leads them as
groups, not as individuals, down negative routes. Therefore, gangs
can be numerically diverse, but at the same time they function
with a common purpose. All members come from the same background;
all of them are socially and economically deprived. Their aim
is to function as a unit and why they operate in that negative,
criminal lifestyle is more to do with their circumstances.
Q412 Mr Winnick: In the main, it
is a fact of life that the black, white or Asian children of prosperous
parents do not go into gangs, for very obvious reasons. Are you
saying in effect that deprivation is the basic reason why they
join gangs, or do you accept the viewpoint that very often they
see rewards that they would not be able to get by legitimate activities?
Mr Edwards: You are totally correct.
The fact is that the opportunity presented to them is to gain
economic welfare but they have chosen to go down an illegal route.
The onus is upon us to create an opportunity for them to have
a lifestyle like anybody else. We are living in a consumerist
society where the media and everyone else tell people that for
an individual to be respectable he needs to have decent clothes
to look the part and have a good, decent job. That is the information
which is fed to young people, so they act upon what they are fed.
When you talk about black crime, there are a large number of cases
involving victims and perpetrators and black people shooting each
other. I have spoken to young people who have come in contact
with the criminal justice agency around the gangs. You have a
young person who has never been in trouble with the police before
but for some reason his first contact with a criminal justice
agency is for a firearm. It is not shoplifting or anything to
do with violence; it is just a firearm. When questioned, many
times the individual says that the reason he has the firearm is
not that he wants to kill anyone; it is to protect himself from
other persons who have guns. These young people whom we are supposed
to be protecting feel that they have to protect themselves. That
is wrong. If they were white young people walking around with
guns and they were giving the same reasons something would be
done. We have gangs across England. If we look at football hooligans,
they do not walk around with firearms shooting one another. They
will have fracas but you do not really see them shooting each
other. Therefore, there is something troubling about gangs within
inner-city areas which feel they have to arm themselves to be
protected.
Q413 Mr Winnick: Ms Stubbs, you mentioned
in passing Mothers Against Gangs. Am I right in saying that most
of those engaged in the campaign in our part of the world—the
West Midlands, in particular Birmingham, although I am more familiar
with the Black Country—are black people who are making it
clear how much they oppose the violence which so often means that
the victims are black? Obviously, they would be opposed if the
victims were white or Asian, but am I not right that what they
are trying to do is establish a situation in the community, certainly
in Birmingham, where gun and knife violence can be dealt with?
Ms Stubbs: It is important to
recognise the amount of work that is done within the black communities
to address the challenges. I would say that the issue of relative
poverty is also one that needs to be understood. I would like
to make two points on this matter.
Q414 Chairman: Could you please try
to answer David Winnick's question directly?
Ms Stubbs: I am trying to do that
and to be specific about the locality and what happens there.
The Holy Trinity church in Handsworth was a safe haven when two
girls were shot two or three years ago. The vicar there is white.
The mothers would have gone there before they went to the police.
It is not that people are not prepared to turn to their community;
it is who they see as being able and willing to help them. They
see the police as part of the problem rather than the solution.
Mr Edwards: The reason you see
a lot of community intervention within the black community on
that specific issue is that people feel that if crimes and traumas
of that magnitude happen in other sub-communities there is a different
holistic response. There is a different response within the media;
they give different coverage; there is a different response with
policing and, following that, when the matter comes to the court
there is a different process. They also feel that the agenda of
black on black crime is not at the forefront of the mind of the
rest of the community. As a community we should holistically embrace
whatever happens within it; we should not distance ourselves because
it is another sub-community. If it was the other way around and
young whites were shooting each other in my community I would
still be running The Young Disciples project and intervening to
divert them away from that lifestyle. Therefore, ethnicity has
nothing to do with the victims or perpetrators of crime because
crime has no colour.
Q415 Chairman: Quite a number of
the witnesses in this inquiry have in one way or another said
that the way we stop young black people becoming involved in the
criminal justice system needs to be specifically tailored to the
needs of young black people, so to some extent the response, whether
it is in schools or the criminal justice system, should be specific
to that group. Are you suggesting that that is not the right way
to do it and that the intervention should set out to be integrated,
or is there a case for having responses that are specifically
tailored to the needs of young black people?
Mr Edwards: What I am about to
say may sound a bit contradictory, but I think that if you are
to have an intervention process it needs to be one that links
in all young people. It should not be specific to ethnicity; if
it is it will be under-resourced. Because of the way that the
country is at this point it will not be taken seriously. It should
be a strategy for all young people. Within that it should have
competent, intelligent packages that can deal with all of the
multi-faceted and complex issues faced by the communities, whether
they are young white, or black lads. As I said at the beginning,
the experiences of young black adults and young poor white adults
are exactly the same. If you went to a prison and interviewed
a young white prisoner about his experiences and background and
then interviewed a young black adult it would be the same. I would
classify it as the poor people's experience. The two black men
who sat here previously are not the kind of people who enter the
criminal justice system. We are not talking about people like
that; we are talking about young black people coming from deprived
communities. Affluent and upper-class white people like yourselves
are not the ones who come into contact with the criminal justice
system; it is poor white kids from deprived estates and inner-city
areas. Therefore, one's strategy should be designed around that
client group.
Q416 Chairman: Ms Stubbs, I should
like to ask you a quick question about the commission's report.
You talk about a unified criminal justice system to deal with
the separate treatment of young people. Many people think that
reform of the youth justice system and the creation of a youth
justice board was a very good thing because it enabled appropriate
interventions and there would be a danger of that being lost.
Is it not the case that you want something like the Youth Justice
Board just to follow up the 18 to 24 group for the next five or
six years rather than have a purely unified system?
Ms Stubbs: Absolutely. The youth
justice system may well have its challenges, but it is considered
to be a good system. We would be looking for an extension of some
of the support that it provides rather than the cliff edge at
age 18. Given that young adults naturally grow out of crime through
God, a job or a woman—by the age of 23 the bulk of them
have grown out of crime—it makes sense to extend that support
as appropriate to youngsters and help them naturally to grow out
of crime.
Q417 Mr Clappison: In a nutshell,
can you tell us what specifically would help your projects to
work more effectively? We are looking for solutions and ideas
that we can take forward. Is there something that would help you
work more effectively?
Ms Stubbs: Referring to the work
we do, it is hard to get other funders to fund the sorts of projects
that we do. It is just seen as risky, edgy, controversial and
even dangerous. I do not think there is recognition that these
youngsters can be helped and that there are interventions and
ways of working that can take these people out of crime, so the
solution tends to be just to try to contain them in prisons, or
wherever they are, rather than genuinely try to help them out.
The sort of work that we are looking at is about better mentoring
and role modelling; it is about how one customises support in
a way that is meaningful to young people rather than a set of
tick boxes that agencies have to complete; and it is also about
rehabilitation to make sure that accommodation and employment—all
the needs that youngsters have to help them not to commit further
crimes—are provided in the communities to which they return.
Mr Edwards: I would add that there
needs to be some type of exit strategy for young adults within
the criminal justice system. I do not think that at the moment
we have yet designed a programme or initiative which looks at
that. At the moment there are prototype programmes in the voluntary
sector which could be harnessed as good practice or looked at
by the government. There are some programmes in Birmingham that
I can name. The Young Disciples project provides evidence of young
people who have been engaged in the criminal justice system but
have been assisted to turn away from that. That needs to be looked
at. How do we look at that model and develop it?
Chairman: This has been a really useful
and lively session. Thank you very much.
| 
