Examination of Witnesses (Questions 420
- 439)
TUESDAY 6 FEBRUARY 2007
MR ROGER
DRAKES AKA
DJ DODGE, MR
BOB TYLER
AND MR
ANDY PARFITT
Q420 Chairman: Do you think there
is anything different about this music and this audience, not
necessarily about crime but in the way people listen to it and
what they listen to, and any other music that has been popular
among other groups of young people in the past?
Mr Parfitt: It is important to
say Radio 1 broadcasts every week to well over 10 and a half million
young people. Music, as Roger has just said, is an absolute passion
for our audience. Overwhelmingly I think that the majority of
people enjoy hip hop or black music genres in the same way as
others enjoy the genres of alternative music or rock music. If
you look at the composition of the audience listening to 1Xtra,
you will find that a good proportion of the audience, even though
it is a music station specialising in new rap music, is a wide
audience; in other words, all young people enjoy these genres.
Q421 Chairman: Could you say something
to the Committee so we understand the production of the music?
We are all familiar with the traditional thing where you have
a star signed to a record label which produces music and all the
rest of it. We understand in this, as in other current forms of
music, there is much more production by young people themselves
and much more scope for independence. What is going on at the
moment in terms of how the music is produced?
Mr Tyler: Channel U is different
insofar as we are not like the other mainstream services such
as MTV. We focus primarily on unsigned artists, predominantly
UK, which makes it very different to other forms of music, although
that is now changing in some respects with the internet and the
way people are able to promote music. The unique thing about this
type of music, and particularly with Channel U, is the young people
can see you do not need a big orchestra to make a song, you do
not need a recording studio that costs a lot of money to make
a song, you do not need to have expensive video equipment to a
make a video; it is very creative. Some of the videos we receive
are quite astounding, from people who have not had experience
before, both visually in terms of the video and very clever lyrics.
It is accessible and it is admired by their peer groups.
Mr Drakes: To follow on from your
question, as Bob said, today everyone is an artist. Every kid,
even if they have great schooling, great education, wherever they
live in the country, on the side they either rap or sing, even
if only in front of the mirror, because at the time we are living
in it is accessible to everyone. You have websites where you can
put your music. You can get out there to everyone. In our community
music is also a way of expressing thoughts and feelings. They
do this by having their little studios, their little equipment
set up, even if it is in their bedroom, and they write about the
lives they live. That is basically it; most of them will never
become professional and get recording deals and be stars. These
are people who do not have that much else to engage them so therefore
music is what engages them.
Mr Parfitt: It is part of the
role of 1Xtra to engage with the artists who are making the music
themselves on computer systems in their bedroom, who are burning
CDs. It is part of the role of 1Xtra to engage with those communities
to give a platform for their work on a national stage. It is also
part of Radio 1's activities, in terms of a service called One
Music, where we spend a lot of time reviewing demos, making sure
big DJ talent can listen to them and pass on comments on line
and so forth. It is part of the characteristic of music making
in the UK, given the technology is now easily accessible and low
in price, that it is accessible. The internet makes the distribution
of music very easy and mobile phones are even used by our audience
in terms of distribution. It is very, very different from the
world of 10 or 20 years ago.
Q422 Chairman: Some of the written
evidence we have received suggests that at least some of the music
is produced by groups of young people where you have not the traditional
model of a group of young people getting together because they
want to produce music but a large gang, a street gang in an area,
and producing music would be part of what that gang did amongst
the rest of its activities. Is that a real model of what happens
or is it a more discrete activity in people's lives that they
are going to produce?
Mr Drakes: I would not say it
is anything to do with gangs or crews, or whatever they are called.
The whole nature of your group of friends is you belong to something,
just like belonging to a group like a chap who joins the Army,
like a group of politicians who are in a group of friends. It
is the same thing with young kids in our communities. They feel
they need to belong to something. If they have failed on other
levels of life, education being one, the nearest thing that gives
them that community feeling and engages them on something they
love is obviously music with a crew of people just like you who
want to talk about the things that you talk about and also live
the life you live. It is a natural thing.
Q423 Chairman: In that sense producing
music might grow out of a fact a group of friends exist in an
area rather than what might be the traditional model of advertising
for three guitarists and a drummer.
Mr Drakes: Exactly, yes.
Q424 Chairman: This is music that
seems, both at the level of international stars and at the level
of the looser or newer type of music producers, to have a much
stronger association with crime than many other types of music.
No music has ever been free entirely of association with crime
but there seems to be an unfortunate number of people who have
been prominent in the rap music scene, both internationally and
nationally, who have been involved in gun crime and other serious
types of crime. Is there an explanation for that?
Mr Parfitt: My view is, and the
people that I have listened to over the almost 10 years that I
have been the Controller of Radio 1 and the four years I have
been the controller of 1Xtra, would be to say you have to look
at black music and hip hop in the round. It is a very large canvass.
The American stars yes, the UK scene that Bob talked about and
in many countries around the world, hip hop is the choice for
many disenfranchised communities. Although it is on the wane slightly
in the UK as a first taste and choice of music, it is a huge and
successful world genre. I think there is, as you say, an unfortunate
association with crime, perhaps we should broaden our view and
say there are some artists who famously make large of their involvement
in crime, but there are many, many other artists, and much other
music, that is not. You have to take a broad view.
Q425 Chairman: Compared with other
musical genres which are very popular around the world with audiences
of tens of hundreds of millions, if you look at individual artists
who have been shot, people who have been jailed for having guns,
people who have had to abandon their gigs because of gun crime,
there is a disproportionate link between this type of music and
some level of criminal activity even if it is a minority.
Mr Parfitt: I accept that there
is a minority. My point is that hip hop is a very broad canvass.
Q426 Chairman: Can you give an explanation
as to why that might be? Accepting your point that it is not everyone
or most people but that strand, that tendency, is there. Is the
association a complete coincidence, is it that the culture that
is producing the music also has a high level of crime, or are
there a number of possible explanations? Why should there be that
apparently consistent trend of some groups being linked to crime
or the music being linked to people involved in crime?
Mr Drakes: I believe the biggest
artists out there being promoted are the ones who are the most
negative and have a negative background. I go back to the art
thing where I say they are talking about their particular lives.
The nature of the society we live in, and the way media publishes
and promotes artists, is they push harder the negative stuff.
There are probably two positive rap CDs for every one negative
one. I listen to a lot of music so I know this. Ultimately people
are drawn to negativity, not just in music but look at the movies.
I sat and watched Channel 4 and Channel 5 last night and there
was nothing positive for four hours on any of the channels. I
saw sex, guns, everything within that four hours, nothing at all
positive, therefore I was dreading spending too much time talking
about music and music's effect on young minds when the world we
live in is creating the way the young minds are. It is not just
a South London black thing at all; it is a whole UK thing.
Q427 Chairman: The point I was trying
to make was actually the individuals involved in the music rather
than the messages.
Mr Drakes: Rap artists do not
have a responsibility to parent. Art is poetry. Art is like painting
or any other art. They are not going to bring up other people's
children.
Q428 Chairman: We will come on to
that. The point I was trying to press was more there seemed to
be an unusually high number of individuals involved in producing
the music and performing the music who are caught up in crime
compared with most other popular music. You cannot make a sweeping
statement about music. There has been criminality in all forms
of music but it seems to be a surprisingly high proportion. I
am trying to get my finger on why that might be the case. We will
come on to the context and message in a moment.
Mr Tyler: In this genre a lot
of people are only writing about things they actually see from
day to day and what they live amongst. If you do not live in a
very good area, you do get in the lift and see needles, burnt
out cars, and you do hear about friends that have had some violence
or some trouble, you do see drug dealers and it is only natural
that some people want to talk about it.
Chairman: You are still talking about
the content. I am more talking about the lives of the individuals
who are involved in music. We will come back to that.
Q429 Margaret Moran: You referred
in your submission to the fact that the most rap records are actually
bought by young, white males and that the music appeals to a broader
spectrum. To give you a snippet of my misspent youth, having spent
my misspent youth in the Co-op Hall in Catford listening to illegal
imports of ska and Blue Beat you could say that was mainly a white
audience and there was a link to violence there if you want to
talk about skinheads. In the evidence we have heard from Shaun
Bailey, he said he identifies with the artist, he says this is
where we come from, the point you are making there. How far do
you think some of the messages are specifically directed at that
group and aimed to have a different impact on young black men
in particular?
Mr Parfitt: From what I have learnt
over the years in terms of listening, a group of artists will
feed off one another or copy each other or aim particular messages
against each other, show-off to each other. There is another context
in that an artist wants to make a piece of music that is more
widely acceptable. I think it is probably both. The artists that
I have talked to and that I meet certainly want to find a platform
for their music broader than their local community and broader
than their group of friends and want to hear it broadcast and
want to progress themselves musically in that scene.
Mr Drakes: You might find it hard
to believe but most of these artists actually believe they are
going to have a life-long career from the records they are making.
They believe that this music is going to turn into a job, buy
them a house and feed their family, et cetera, and that is why
they do it. That is why they spend what little money they have,
or get from wherever, to buy equipment. That is no different to
a young gentleman going to college and studying as hard as he
can to get his qualifications in order to get the same thing.
It is almost like they have found one way does not work, what
they see in front of them they believe is not going to work, throughout
the years growing up and watching their parents they do not believe
that way will work. They have almost dug their own tunnel, a way
that they believe will work. They all think they are going to
be stars and live from the music.
Mr Parfitt: To add to that, some
of the very best groups, with the support of radio stations like
1Xtra, for example Dizzee Rascal who won the Mercury music prize
some few years, break through and connect their music and their
stories to a much wider audience.
Mr Drakes: If you remember So
Solid Crew had a number one hit, everyone remembers that. That
almost was the beginning and, believe it or not, even though they
were negative and had such bad press they inspired because they
showed all the little 10 year olds coming up watching the TV that
this is a way you can make it. This was a way to get out of the
council estate, away from the needles and have a life. Does that
make sense?
Margaret Moran: Yes, and get into
trouble with the law.
Q430 Chairman: One of their members
ended up in prison for possessing firearms.
Mr Drakes: I know but it is hope;
it is financial hope. Obviously they mess up along the line because
it is like trying to take the ghetto out of the person once they
have been elevated to that level.
Q431 Margaret Moran: You have made
the argument, in a sense, that youngsters see that but they also
see the gun crime element of that.
Mr Drakes: I am talking about
the actual music side. So Solid were not on TV with guns.
Q432 Margaret Moran: Not in their
performance but elsewhere. Obviously a lot of the content of what
we are discussing here is negative and is sometimes criticised
from within the black community itself. I seem to remember Ms
Dynamite protested, when I was Chair of the All-Party Group on
Domestic Violence, against some of the lyrics, "slap the
bitch" and all of that kind of thing. I am looking at
Bob particularly here, on your channel I know you have viewer
feedback which seems to be feeding back that some of these more
violent videos and music are what is preferred. How much would
it affect your ratings if you were to say "No, we are not
having any of that. We think it is detrimental and not positive
enough."
Mr Tyler: That is not quite the
case. Dizzee Rascal was an artist that Channel U first broke and
he won the Mercury prize in 2004. What we do at Channel U is we
respond. We have to comply with the Ofcom codes which are quite
clear. A lot of the codes refer to protecting people under 16.
20% of our viewers are under 16 and 30% are between 16 and 18.
There are a lot of young people watching. We must not show things
which show the effects of crime or things like that.
Q433 Margaret Moran: You are subject
to regulation like everybody else. What I am asking is there is
demand clearly for this kind of violent image and lyric and you
are responding to that.
Mr Tyler: No, we do not respond
to it.
Mr Parfitt: I think there is a
demand, in my experience, for exciting UK hip hop or the best
of American hip hop, and a proportion of it has lyrics which some
people find negative. Again I would just urge that we take a broader
view. A lot of hip hop is just purely boy meets girl pop music
and some of it is more social observation. There is a panoply
of material out there which young audiences find exciting and
want to engage with. We do all have very clear regulatory obligations.
The BBC guidelines are extremely clear and Radio 1 and 1Xtra are
careful to adhere to what those guidelines say and in delivery
of them. We are extremely careful. Generally I think the appetite
is for exciting music. There is a very broad panoply.
Q434 Margaret Moran: But music which
advocates violence and rape of women.
Mr Parfitt: It has already been
said that young musicians write music about what they see, and
sometimes when they write about their own personal situations
some of the content is some of the harsher realities of life.
There are certain artists, one that springs to my mind a young
guy called Plan B, Ben Drew. He writes a very searing and good
piece of social observation as well as the other kind of music
which is a little bit more aggressive. It is a broader brush I
think.
Mr Tyler: If I go back to the
point again, the videos are voted for. Once they have passed the
criteria for being on the Channel, and we reject a big number
of videos because of that reason, it is a fair process that every
video is voted for. The answer to the question is every week we
have a Channel U Top Ten which is compiled by actual votes and
these videos do not appear in the Channel U Top Ten.
Q435 Margaret Moran: You are saying
there is demand out there for very violent realistic videos and
music but you are censoring some of them.
Mr Tyler: I would not use the
word censor. We have standards and we have to apply the broadcasting
codes.
Q436 Mrs Cryer: I am going over the
same ground that Margaret touched on. Could you say what proportion
of the material you actually play does portray in some way criminal
behaviour and do you think it could just encourage violent behaviour?
Mr Tyler: I noticed that during
2006 the amount of videos submitted of a violent nature, whether
it was visually or within lyrics, is decreasing. We have had more
and more feedback with the artists during 2006 and obviously they
realise now the young people want to get the videos played at
all times of the day. Often we have to put videos on after the
watershed and it is not going to get so many plays overnight.
People do not want to see their video at 3.00 am. Young people
call us up and say "Why are you not playing my video in the
day?" and we tell them why. They are actually responding
to this, and those types of videos are now decreasing and more
daytime suitable videos are being submitted. People are getting
the message. They want to continue to be on television and if
they have to change their video to a style to be on in the daytime,
they will make those changes.
Mr Parfitt: For Radio 1 around
about 9% of the music output would be classed as hip hop music,
on 1Xtra it is around 30%. We have very clear delineation between
what you can hear on daytime radio and what you can hear in the
evening because the expectations of the audience are very different.
The majority of what is broadcast in the daytime, none of that
music would depict any criminal behaviour. The editorial process
would ensure that radio edits are played. For those records that
are played in specialist shows, for example Tim Westwood or Ras
Kwame, they are subject to pretty strict editorial guidelines,
usually radio edits are played. If there is strong language and
imagery, and the proportion is tiny they are played but only ever
on proper justifiable editorial grounds. Even then, we are obliged,
and are happy, to give a warning to listeners there is something
they might hear. If they want to tune away from strong language
or content, we would make that absolutely clear to them.
Mr Drakes: To add to what Andy
said about the broader picture, if we are going to talk about
negativity within music that is affecting a certain community,
then we cannot do that and ignore society, movies, video games
and all the other negative aspects of our community. Music has
no comparison to Hollywood. The most negative movies have million
pound advertising campaigns. The kids, if they are vulnerable,
are more influenced by a big screen picture of blood splattering
everywhere and guns. To talk about music for even this amount
of time is ignoring the broader picture.
Q437 Mrs Cryer: In a way you are
acting like the film censor for the films we see.
Mr Drakes: Exactly.
Q438 Mrs Cryer: Just recently I have
seen The Last King of Scotland and Casino Royale
both of which were horrifically violent. I would not want my grandchildren
to see them but I am advised as to what would be suitable for
them. Do you see your role as being that of editorial censors?
How much of the material that is forwarded to you do you actually
throw out because you feel it would be too violent for your audience?
Mr Parfitt: That is quite hard
for me to say. What I would say is a station like Radio 1 will
receive hundreds and hundreds of individual pieces of music every
week and similar would be true of 1Xtra. The job of the production
teams and the music teams is to make some choices about what they
think takes the genre on and what is high quality music. On the
question of censorship, we are very careful not to ban a record.
Where our editorial policies stem from is very much in line with
the audience's own expectations. Whether you are 16 and a real
fan of heavy metal or a real fan of hip hop, you do not want to
be surprised at breakfast, when listening to the radio with your
family, with particularly strong content. Young people do not
want that and parents do not want that. The expectations of audiences
are critical in driving those policies, not so much top down although
we are clearly taking an editorial perspective on some material.
In the evening when specialist audiences have a very, very clear
expectation about what that genre means, what that brings, the
content a particular DJ brings, then we think the DJ can take
people further with the material that is a bit broader mix. Some
of it people will not like but the context of the show, the expectations
and the warnings we give I think pretty much are successful. In
the time that I have been Controller there has not been an upheld
complaint by the Broadcasting Standards Council nor Ofcom about
any of the rap hip hop content in the stations that I lead.
Q439 Mrs Cryer: I am trying to get
at how much of the material that is sent you actually discard
because you think it is of too a violent nature. It sounds as
if it is related to the time of day to a certain extent.
Mr Drakes: Margaret has commented
on rape advocating, or something like that. Those kinds of records
I have never heard of. If any DJ, or Andy, had anything like that
it would not even see the light of the day and the artist would
never get played. Obviously you get records which are a little
more real, a little more harsh on the ear as far as what they
are saying. I personally do not censor my music. It is like reading
a horror story or reading a book about something; it is not nice
but you read it, you learn something about someone else's life
and hopefully it will help you to help them maybe. Generally I
do not like censorship, as such, which is what you are getting
towards.
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