Select Committee on Home Affairs Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 420 - 439)

TUESDAY 6 FEBRUARY 2007

MR ROGER DRAKES AKA DJ DODGE, MR BOB TYLER AND MR ANDY PARFITT

  Q420  Chairman: Do you think there is anything different about this music and this audience, not necessarily about crime but in the way people listen to it and what they listen to, and any other music that has been popular among other groups of young people in the past?

  Mr Parfitt: It is important to say Radio 1 broadcasts every week to well over 10 and a half million young people. Music, as Roger has just said, is an absolute passion for our audience. Overwhelmingly I think that the majority of people enjoy hip hop or black music genres in the same way as others enjoy the genres of alternative music or rock music. If you look at the composition of the audience listening to 1Xtra, you will find that a good proportion of the audience, even though it is a music station specialising in new rap music, is a wide audience; in other words, all young people enjoy these genres.

  Q421  Chairman: Could you say something to the Committee so we understand the production of the music? We are all familiar with the traditional thing where you have a star signed to a record label which produces music and all the rest of it. We understand in this, as in other current forms of music, there is much more production by young people themselves and much more scope for independence. What is going on at the moment in terms of how the music is produced?

  Mr Tyler: Channel U is different insofar as we are not like the other mainstream services such as MTV. We focus primarily on unsigned artists, predominantly UK, which makes it very different to other forms of music, although that is now changing in some respects with the internet and the way people are able to promote music. The unique thing about this type of music, and particularly with Channel U, is the young people can see you do not need a big orchestra to make a song, you do not need a recording studio that costs a lot of money to make a song, you do not need to have expensive video equipment to a make a video; it is very creative. Some of the videos we receive are quite astounding, from people who have not had experience before, both visually in terms of the video and very clever lyrics. It is accessible and it is admired by their peer groups.

  Mr Drakes: To follow on from your question, as Bob said, today everyone is an artist. Every kid, even if they have great schooling, great education, wherever they live in the country, on the side they either rap or sing, even if only in front of the mirror, because at the time we are living in it is accessible to everyone. You have websites where you can put your music. You can get out there to everyone. In our community music is also a way of expressing thoughts and feelings. They do this by having their little studios, their little equipment set up, even if it is in their bedroom, and they write about the lives they live. That is basically it; most of them will never become professional and get recording deals and be stars. These are people who do not have that much else to engage them so therefore music is what engages them.

  Mr Parfitt: It is part of the role of 1Xtra to engage with the artists who are making the music themselves on computer systems in their bedroom, who are burning CDs. It is part of the role of 1Xtra to engage with those communities to give a platform for their work on a national stage. It is also part of Radio 1's activities, in terms of a service called One Music, where we spend a lot of time reviewing demos, making sure big DJ talent can listen to them and pass on comments on line and so forth. It is part of the characteristic of music making in the UK, given the technology is now easily accessible and low in price, that it is accessible. The internet makes the distribution of music very easy and mobile phones are even used by our audience in terms of distribution. It is very, very different from the world of 10 or 20 years ago.

  Q422  Chairman: Some of the written evidence we have received suggests that at least some of the music is produced by groups of young people where you have not the traditional model of a group of young people getting together because they want to produce music but a large gang, a street gang in an area, and producing music would be part of what that gang did amongst the rest of its activities. Is that a real model of what happens or is it a more discrete activity in people's lives that they are going to produce?

  Mr Drakes: I would not say it is anything to do with gangs or crews, or whatever they are called. The whole nature of your group of friends is you belong to something, just like belonging to a group like a chap who joins the Army, like a group of politicians who are in a group of friends. It is the same thing with young kids in our communities. They feel they need to belong to something. If they have failed on other levels of life, education being one, the nearest thing that gives them that community feeling and engages them on something they love is obviously music with a crew of people just like you who want to talk about the things that you talk about and also live the life you live. It is a natural thing.

  Q423  Chairman: In that sense producing music might grow out of a fact a group of friends exist in an area rather than what might be the traditional model of advertising for three guitarists and a drummer.

  Mr Drakes: Exactly, yes.

  Q424  Chairman: This is music that seems, both at the level of international stars and at the level of the looser or newer type of music producers, to have a much stronger association with crime than many other types of music. No music has ever been free entirely of association with crime but there seems to be an unfortunate number of people who have been prominent in the rap music scene, both internationally and nationally, who have been involved in gun crime and other serious types of crime. Is there an explanation for that?

  Mr Parfitt: My view is, and the people that I have listened to over the almost 10 years that I have been the Controller of Radio 1 and the four years I have been the controller of 1Xtra, would be to say you have to look at black music and hip hop in the round. It is a very large canvass. The American stars yes, the UK scene that Bob talked about and in many countries around the world, hip hop is the choice for many disenfranchised communities. Although it is on the wane slightly in the UK as a first taste and choice of music, it is a huge and successful world genre. I think there is, as you say, an unfortunate association with crime, perhaps we should broaden our view and say there are some artists who famously make large of their involvement in crime, but there are many, many other artists, and much other music, that is not. You have to take a broad view.

  Q425  Chairman: Compared with other musical genres which are very popular around the world with audiences of tens of hundreds of millions, if you look at individual artists who have been shot, people who have been jailed for having guns, people who have had to abandon their gigs because of gun crime, there is a disproportionate link between this type of music and some level of criminal activity even if it is a minority.

  Mr Parfitt: I accept that there is a minority. My point is that hip hop is a very broad canvass.

  Q426  Chairman: Can you give an explanation as to why that might be? Accepting your point that it is not everyone or most people but that strand, that tendency, is there. Is the association a complete coincidence, is it that the culture that is producing the music also has a high level of crime, or are there a number of possible explanations? Why should there be that apparently consistent trend of some groups being linked to crime or the music being linked to people involved in crime?

  Mr Drakes: I believe the biggest artists out there being promoted are the ones who are the most negative and have a negative background. I go back to the art thing where I say they are talking about their particular lives. The nature of the society we live in, and the way media publishes and promotes artists, is they push harder the negative stuff. There are probably two positive rap CDs for every one negative one. I listen to a lot of music so I know this. Ultimately people are drawn to negativity, not just in music but look at the movies. I sat and watched Channel 4 and Channel 5 last night and there was nothing positive for four hours on any of the channels. I saw sex, guns, everything within that four hours, nothing at all positive, therefore I was dreading spending too much time talking about music and music's effect on young minds when the world we live in is creating the way the young minds are. It is not just a South London black thing at all; it is a whole UK thing.

  Q427  Chairman: The point I was trying to make was actually the individuals involved in the music rather than the messages.

  Mr Drakes: Rap artists do not have a responsibility to parent. Art is poetry. Art is like painting or any other art. They are not going to bring up other people's children.

  Q428  Chairman: We will come on to that. The point I was trying to press was more there seemed to be an unusually high number of individuals involved in producing the music and performing the music who are caught up in crime compared with most other popular music. You cannot make a sweeping statement about music. There has been criminality in all forms of music but it seems to be a surprisingly high proportion. I am trying to get my finger on why that might be the case. We will come on to the context and message in a moment.

  Mr Tyler: In this genre a lot of people are only writing about things they actually see from day to day and what they live amongst. If you do not live in a very good area, you do get in the lift and see needles, burnt out cars, and you do hear about friends that have had some violence or some trouble, you do see drug dealers and it is only natural that some people want to talk about it.

  Chairman: You are still talking about the content. I am more talking about the lives of the individuals who are involved in music. We will come back to that.

  Q429  Margaret Moran: You referred in your submission to the fact that the most rap records are actually bought by young, white males and that the music appeals to a broader spectrum. To give you a snippet of my misspent youth, having spent my misspent youth in the Co-op Hall in Catford listening to illegal imports of ska and Blue Beat you could say that was mainly a white audience and there was a link to violence there if you want to talk about skinheads. In the evidence we have heard from Shaun Bailey, he said he identifies with the artist, he says this is where we come from, the point you are making there. How far do you think some of the messages are specifically directed at that group and aimed to have a different impact on young black men in particular?

  Mr Parfitt: From what I have learnt over the years in terms of listening, a group of artists will feed off one another or copy each other or aim particular messages against each other, show-off to each other. There is another context in that an artist wants to make a piece of music that is more widely acceptable. I think it is probably both. The artists that I have talked to and that I meet certainly want to find a platform for their music broader than their local community and broader than their group of friends and want to hear it broadcast and want to progress themselves musically in that scene.

  Mr Drakes: You might find it hard to believe but most of these artists actually believe they are going to have a life-long career from the records they are making. They believe that this music is going to turn into a job, buy them a house and feed their family, et cetera, and that is why they do it. That is why they spend what little money they have, or get from wherever, to buy equipment. That is no different to a young gentleman going to college and studying as hard as he can to get his qualifications in order to get the same thing. It is almost like they have found one way does not work, what they see in front of them they believe is not going to work, throughout the years growing up and watching their parents they do not believe that way will work. They have almost dug their own tunnel, a way that they believe will work. They all think they are going to be stars and live from the music.

  Mr Parfitt: To add to that, some of the very best groups, with the support of radio stations like 1Xtra, for example Dizzee Rascal who won the Mercury music prize some few years, break through and connect their music and their stories to a much wider audience.

  Mr Drakes: If you remember So Solid Crew had a number one hit, everyone remembers that. That almost was the beginning and, believe it or not, even though they were negative and had such bad press they inspired because they showed all the little 10 year olds coming up watching the TV that this is a way you can make it. This was a way to get out of the council estate, away from the needles and have a life. Does that make sense?

  Margaret Moran: Yes, and get into trouble with the law.

  Q430  Chairman: One of their members ended up in prison for possessing firearms.

  Mr Drakes: I know but it is hope; it is financial hope. Obviously they mess up along the line because it is like trying to take the ghetto out of the person once they have been elevated to that level.

  Q431  Margaret Moran: You have made the argument, in a sense, that youngsters see that but they also see the gun crime element of that.

  Mr Drakes: I am talking about the actual music side. So Solid were not on TV with guns.

  Q432  Margaret Moran: Not in their performance but elsewhere. Obviously a lot of the content of what we are discussing here is negative and is sometimes criticised from within the black community itself. I seem to remember Ms Dynamite protested, when I was Chair of the All-Party Group on Domestic Violence, against some of the lyrics, "slap the bitch" and all of that kind of thing. I am looking at Bob particularly here, on your channel I know you have viewer feedback which seems to be feeding back that some of these more violent videos and music are what is preferred. How much would it affect your ratings if you were to say "No, we are not having any of that. We think it is detrimental and not positive enough."

  Mr Tyler: That is not quite the case. Dizzee Rascal was an artist that Channel U first broke and he won the Mercury prize in 2004. What we do at Channel U is we respond. We have to comply with the Ofcom codes which are quite clear. A lot of the codes refer to protecting people under 16. 20% of our viewers are under 16 and 30% are between 16 and 18. There are a lot of young people watching. We must not show things which show the effects of crime or things like that.

  Q433  Margaret Moran: You are subject to regulation like everybody else. What I am asking is there is demand clearly for this kind of violent image and lyric and you are responding to that.

  Mr Tyler: No, we do not respond to it.

  Mr Parfitt: I think there is a demand, in my experience, for exciting UK hip hop or the best of American hip hop, and a proportion of it has lyrics which some people find negative. Again I would just urge that we take a broader view. A lot of hip hop is just purely boy meets girl pop music and some of it is more social observation. There is a panoply of material out there which young audiences find exciting and want to engage with. We do all have very clear regulatory obligations. The BBC guidelines are extremely clear and Radio 1 and 1Xtra are careful to adhere to what those guidelines say and in delivery of them. We are extremely careful. Generally I think the appetite is for exciting music. There is a very broad panoply.

  Q434  Margaret Moran: But music which advocates violence and rape of women.

  Mr Parfitt: It has already been said that young musicians write music about what they see, and sometimes when they write about their own personal situations some of the content is some of the harsher realities of life. There are certain artists, one that springs to my mind a young guy called Plan B, Ben Drew. He writes a very searing and good piece of social observation as well as the other kind of music which is a little bit more aggressive. It is a broader brush I think.

  Mr Tyler: If I go back to the point again, the videos are voted for. Once they have passed the criteria for being on the Channel, and we reject a big number of videos because of that reason, it is a fair process that every video is voted for. The answer to the question is every week we have a Channel U Top Ten which is compiled by actual votes and these videos do not appear in the Channel U Top Ten.

  Q435  Margaret Moran: You are saying there is demand out there for very violent realistic videos and music but you are censoring some of them.

  Mr Tyler: I would not use the word censor. We have standards and we have to apply the broadcasting codes.

  Q436  Mrs Cryer: I am going over the same ground that Margaret touched on. Could you say what proportion of the material you actually play does portray in some way criminal behaviour and do you think it could just encourage violent behaviour?

  Mr Tyler: I noticed that during 2006 the amount of videos submitted of a violent nature, whether it was visually or within lyrics, is decreasing. We have had more and more feedback with the artists during 2006 and obviously they realise now the young people want to get the videos played at all times of the day. Often we have to put videos on after the watershed and it is not going to get so many plays overnight. People do not want to see their video at 3.00 am. Young people call us up and say "Why are you not playing my video in the day?" and we tell them why. They are actually responding to this, and those types of videos are now decreasing and more daytime suitable videos are being submitted. People are getting the message. They want to continue to be on television and if they have to change their video to a style to be on in the daytime, they will make those changes.

  Mr Parfitt: For Radio 1 around about 9% of the music output would be classed as hip hop music, on 1Xtra it is around 30%. We have very clear delineation between what you can hear on daytime radio and what you can hear in the evening because the expectations of the audience are very different. The majority of what is broadcast in the daytime, none of that music would depict any criminal behaviour. The editorial process would ensure that radio edits are played. For those records that are played in specialist shows, for example Tim Westwood or Ras Kwame, they are subject to pretty strict editorial guidelines, usually radio edits are played. If there is strong language and imagery, and the proportion is tiny they are played but only ever on proper justifiable editorial grounds. Even then, we are obliged, and are happy, to give a warning to listeners there is something they might hear. If they want to tune away from strong language or content, we would make that absolutely clear to them.

  Mr Drakes: To add to what Andy said about the broader picture, if we are going to talk about negativity within music that is affecting a certain community, then we cannot do that and ignore society, movies, video games and all the other negative aspects of our community. Music has no comparison to Hollywood. The most negative movies have million pound advertising campaigns. The kids, if they are vulnerable, are more influenced by a big screen picture of blood splattering everywhere and guns. To talk about music for even this amount of time is ignoring the broader picture.

  Q437  Mrs Cryer: In a way you are acting like the film censor for the films we see.

  Mr Drakes: Exactly.

  Q438  Mrs Cryer: Just recently I have seen The Last King of Scotland and Casino Royale both of which were horrifically violent. I would not want my grandchildren to see them but I am advised as to what would be suitable for them. Do you see your role as being that of editorial censors? How much of the material that is forwarded to you do you actually throw out because you feel it would be too violent for your audience?

  Mr Parfitt: That is quite hard for me to say. What I would say is a station like Radio 1 will receive hundreds and hundreds of individual pieces of music every week and similar would be true of 1Xtra. The job of the production teams and the music teams is to make some choices about what they think takes the genre on and what is high quality music. On the question of censorship, we are very careful not to ban a record. Where our editorial policies stem from is very much in line with the audience's own expectations. Whether you are 16 and a real fan of heavy metal or a real fan of hip hop, you do not want to be surprised at breakfast, when listening to the radio with your family, with particularly strong content. Young people do not want that and parents do not want that. The expectations of audiences are critical in driving those policies, not so much top down although we are clearly taking an editorial perspective on some material. In the evening when specialist audiences have a very, very clear expectation about what that genre means, what that brings, the content a particular DJ brings, then we think the DJ can take people further with the material that is a bit broader mix. Some of it people will not like but the context of the show, the expectations and the warnings we give I think pretty much are successful. In the time that I have been Controller there has not been an upheld complaint by the Broadcasting Standards Council nor Ofcom about any of the rap hip hop content in the stations that I lead.

  Q439  Mrs Cryer: I am trying to get at how much of the material that is sent you actually discard because you think it is of too a violent nature. It sounds as if it is related to the time of day to a certain extent.

  Mr Drakes: Margaret has commented on rape advocating, or something like that. Those kinds of records I have never heard of. If any DJ, or Andy, had anything like that it would not even see the light of the day and the artist would never get played. Obviously you get records which are a little more real, a little more harsh on the ear as far as what they are saying. I personally do not censor my music. It is like reading a horror story or reading a book about something; it is not nice but you read it, you learn something about someone else's life and hopefully it will help you to help them maybe. Generally I do not like censorship, as such, which is what you are getting towards.


 
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