Examination of Witnesses (Questions 440
- 459)
TUESDAY 6 FEBRUARY 2007
MR ROGER
DRAKES AKA
DJ DODGE, MR
BOB TYLER
AND MR
ANDY PARFITT
Q440 Mrs Cryer: I am not suggesting
it is a bad thing. I just ask how you use it.
Mr Drakes: I do not really.
Chairman: It might help if we move to
the next questions and look at some of the lyrics and the issues
behind some of the lyrics.
Q441 Mr Winnick: Mr Drakes, when
you started to give evidence you said that the sort of music we
are talking about should not be blamed for criminality and I assume
that is the view of the two other witnesses. However, particularly
for Mr Drakes but I will come on to Mr Parfitt, do you believe
that there is some sort of responsibility to send the message
out of a more positive nature, in other words trying to encourage
young people, and certainly black people, to avoid drugs and gun
violence?
Mr Drakes: Ultimately I believe
that and that is why I am here speaking. I want to see a change,
I want to see the violence stop. What I am saying is, as a defender
of music, we are focusing far too much on one aspect of what makes
these people do what they do. We are here to have some kind of
answer to the problems when we leave this room and by focusing
on music, and just music alone for now, we are a million miles
away from where the point is.
Q442 Mr Winnick: No-one is suggesting
for one moment that criminality, which is the subject of this
inquiry, the involvement of black youths in the criminal justice
system, all rises from this sort of music. No-one is suggesting
that. It is a possible aspect we are exploring. If, in your mind,
you come to the conclusion that the reason we believe such violence
takes place is simply because of the music, that is not our view,
it cannot be our view, and is not the view of any sensible person.
It may be, at most, a minor aspect. That is why we have asked
you to give evidence.
Mr Drakes: That question was answered
by me at the very beginning. I said yes, music does affect people's
behavioural patterns whether you are a teenager and are influenced
by an artist who has a massive poster on the street and is making
millions of pounds.
Chairman: We did not plan to have this
session when we set out this inquiry. We have been looking at
lots of other issues of criminality. It is because some of the
black witnesses who came in front of this Committee said there
is an issue about the music that we are here this afternoon.
Q443 Mr Winnick: Mr Parfitt, it may
be argued that in the job you have at Radio 1, a subsidised organisation,
that you have a greater responsibility on these matters. Putting
the same question as I did to Mr Drakes, do you think you have
any responsibility on Radio 1 to try and encourage young people,
be they black or white, against criminality and gun violence?
Mr Parfitt: I have got a lot to
say on this. For probably 25 years Radio 1 has recognised that
it has another role other than that of reflecting and promoting
the best new music. Radio 1 has, as you probably know, a group
of young journalists who make regular programmes, newsbeat programmes.
1Xtra similarly, from its inception, has a very clear quota of
ensuring that it makes bespoke news programmes for its young audience.
What that means in practice is young ethnic minority journalists
focusing on an agenda which is relevant to their listeners can
get further in explaining some of the issues around criminality,
around unwanted pregnancies, and so on, than many of the conventional
mainstream news programmes. There is a regular news service on
1Xtra that deals with all of these issues on a regular basis.
There are documentary teams who make programmes around gun crime.
When the knife amnesty was a current theme 18 months ago Radio
1 made a documentary reflecting that called Knives Out. During
the Paris riots when hip hop again was charged by French politicians
as being responsible for the outbreak of violence in the Paris
suburbs, we sent some reporters over there to investigate that
story and find out more. When it comes to music making, there
are some fantastic examples of where divides can be crossed through
music. I am thinking of one particular example where the BBC concert
orchestra and a group of young MCs from Hackney got together and
did a programme on Radio 3 and 1Xtra called Urban Classics.
It was the most successful and clear, to my mind, example how
engagement just through music can do a power of good. That was
a rather long answer to your question but I emphatically agree
and I would not be doing the job I do if we were not doing something
of value for these audiences and building a public value.
Mr Winnick: We have examples of
some of these lyrics. Due to the sensitivity of my colleagues—I
am more hardened in these matters—I hesitate to quote some
of them.
Martin Salter: You sing along
David. That is why these people have turned up.
Q444 Mr Winnick: Can I just, if I
may, quote one which was broadcast apparently on the 21 March
on Radio 1, if I did not hear it myself: "Murder, murder,
mu-murder, murder, mu-murder these streets. Murder, murder, mu-murder,
murder, mu-murder these streets (I'm 'bout to). Murder, murder,
mu-murder, murder, mu-murder these streets." I am not
suggesting, Mr Parfitt, that someone hearing that will go out
and murder, but considering what you have just said do you not
think, recognising the amount of gun violence and murders, the
taking of lives and what is sometimes described, not by me but
by the police, as black-on-black crime, perhaps on reflection
it is not the best message?
Mr Parfitt: From your quote I
cannot place the tune.
Mr Tyler: They might be saying
"There is so much murder, let's get out of it" or something.
Mr Parfitt: The serious point
is whether that was an expression saying that I am going to do
something well, or slang, I do not know. I am not familiar with
where the particular tune came from. There are some uncomfortable
lyrics for some people made by some perfectly seriously minded
young people reflecting the lives they see around them which may
contain material that, out of context, makes some people feel
uncomfortable or cause offence.
Q445 Mr Winnick: Would it cause you
to feel uncomfortable?
Mr Parfitt: On that particular
example I do not know when it was broadcast.
Q446 Mr Winnick: 25 March last year,
9.00 pm. Everybody else is in bed?
Mr Parfitt: If it was 9.00 pm
that would constitute, in my mind, the heart of the evening schedule
which is a specialist output. What we know from our audience is
they would understand entirely the expectations of the shows they
are listening to. If that particular track went on to have some
very strong language or some graphic description, there would
have been a warning for it. I do not know, from the description,
whether it did or not.
Q447 Mr Winnick: On graphic examples
of sexuality, which I am not going to put, 46 or 47 years ago
there was a case involving Lady Chatterley's Lover. Fortunately,
as far as I am concerned, the case was won by the publishers.
Is it part of your case that just as there was a great deal of
fuss at the time about Lawrence's novel, which no-one would suggest
for one moment should be banned, similarly now there is the fuss
about what we are discussing? Would that be part of your defence?
Mr Parfitt: I certainly bring
that argument into play that very often new and emerging music
genres or youth movements often alienate or spook out older generations.
Operating on a day-by-day basis and making editorial decisions
about what music to include in a particular show is part of my
role. The BBC remit, as far as Radio 1 is concerned, is very clear.
It says that we have a duty to reflect, as widely as we possibly
can, the youth music genres from the UK and around the world.
It is part of our remit to showcase and to find the best of all
those genres, including hip hop or UK Grime and so on. When we
are doing that we have a duty to protect vulnerable listeners.
In the same way we know when children are viewing Channel U, we
also know when the under 16s are listening to Radio 1 and we take
care with our schedule. In the example you have just given, I
would probably guess the proportion of under 16s listening at
that time would be 5% or 10%. If there was graphic material to
follow or strong language there would have been a warning. The
audience listening to that programme would have an expectation
what the genre was all about.
Q448 Mr Winnick: I was going to quote,
Mr Tyler, something from Channel U but I will not because I would
like to ask your comments about Neil Fraser who runs music of
this kind. He says that producers should share some of the guilt
every time a black youth dies by the gun in the UK. In other words,
those of you who allow this music to be played, Mr Fraser takes
the view, you should share some of the responsibility for the
criminality which occurs.
Mr Tyler: We are not producers
of the music; we are only the broadcaster.
Q449 Mr Winnick: Do you accept any
responsibility as a broadcaster?
Mr Tyler: We cannot accept responsibility
for things that happen that may or may not be a result of music
being played. At Channel U we make every effort we can to ensure
we do not incite violence and crime.
Q450 Mr Winnick: Do you think you
have any responsibility?
Mr Tyler: We have a responsibility
to protect young and vulnerable people and I believe we are doing
that very well with the small team of young people that we have.
Mr Drakes: I could answer the
bit about the making of the music. As a producer I personally
choose not to work with artists who have terrible, violent, negative,
sexist, murderous lyrics but I am one producer out of thousands.
As I said before, everyone is an artist, everyone is a producer.
If we are talking about the average 17 year old producer who has
access to making music and does not have a very good education,
there is no way of policing what kind of music he is going to
make. I do not make music from a council estate; I make music
from where I live. I am not in the middle of the problem.
Mr Tyler: One of the things we
are seeing in terms of the content of the video in respect of
violence is we are getting more videos and more songs that say
"I used to be into this, I used to do drugs, I used to hang
around in gangs, but now I am into my music." There are lots
of these aspirations. These are positive messages these young
people are saying, "Do not think you can get your big car
and this bling culture by going around stealing or selling drugs
or doing whatever you want. Be like me and be a rap star because
we are going to be big." Everybody thinks they are, and some
are. Some of these people are grasping on to this and they are
role models; they are good examples. Some of these songs are turning
their back on that scene. They do not want to know that scene.
A common expression is "I do not do those bars any more",
which refers to selling drugs, "I will do my song bars."
They are making these analogies with the bad life and the good
life of being a performer.
Q451 Mr Winnick: To the extent that
occurs, that is very encouraging.
Mr Drakes: You could pick a negative
line from most songs not just rap songs. You have to listen to
the whole song and the context in which it was written and find
out the person who wrote it and why they wrote it. That line you
quoted about murder, I do not know what context the song was written.
He could have been feeling a certain way or witnessed a certain
thing that made him write it.
Q452 Ms Buck: Before you came in
we were discussing the lyrics of Tom Jones' song Delilah,
which you may remember involves him stabbing his adulterous lover
to death. As far as I know there was not a spate of copycat Tom
Jones murders. Going back to the issue that worries me, and it
goes back to your answer a little bit earlier, there is a body
of academic research which clearly confirms the risk of desensitisation
of young people when they are exposed to, and I take your point
it is not music alone but can be the whole culture, pornographic
and horror slash movies, all of that culture. Music is an element
of that. If young people are constantly exposed to that level
of very aggressive, very materialistic, very sexist material it
does not make them go out and commit a crime any more than people
who listened to Tom Jones went out and got a knife but that cumulative
effect can be important and it is particularly important for young
teens. In your evidence and in your research, and it is quite
right that young people have a strong sense of their own ability
to make those judgments, do 12 and 13 year olds have that? Is
it not absolutely the case that 12 and 13 year olds will be listening
to that music at nine o'clock at night?
Mr Parfitt: One of my other roles
for the BBC is to look at the overall content provision for 12
to 15 year olds. I have done a pretty extensive six months of
research in this area. I would say it is, first of all, very hard
to say that there is a typical 12 or 13 year old. Some 12 or 13
year olds exhibit the maturity and tendencies of 16 or 17 year
olds so it is hard to say. The position I come from is that, in
my experience, music and music making is a power of good, therefore
a focus for some young people's energy and activity. Particularly
when we are talking about, by and large, disenfranchised young
people, it is a good thing. It is creative and can lead to a micro
business of selling CDs and so on. There is a lot of good there.
If the services like 1Xtra can access that, and seem to give a
conduit to a much broader picture, a UK-wide picture, that tends
to be a good thing. You have to balance those two things. There
may be some exposure to some negative imagery and lyrics but on
Radio 1 and 1Xtra we manage that very carefully and very sensitively.
Radio 1 and 1Xtra, however powerful they are, are only part of
a much broader picture. For example, there is a burgeoning pirate
radio scene in virtually all the major conurbations.
Mr Drakes: Just to add to what
Andy said, if we actually saw the way someone of these crews and
youngsters organise the business aspects of their music, you would
see that they are stockbrokers, they are bankers, they are entrepreneurs,
they have CDs, they go to manufacturing plants, they press it,
record it and make it. Walk down Oxford or Regent Street right
now and to people like myself they will offer to sell you one.
That is a salesmen right there. Those legitimate avenues of doing
those jobs were closed when they were 14 or 15 in the education
system. They have come out the other end and now they are doing
it their way.
Q453 Ms Buck: All of that is true.
There is no question that music, in that broader context of the
creative arts, is one of the best things that can happen to young
people and gives all kinds of outlets but I am not sure that gets
people off the hook, and I do not mean just Radio 1. The constant
exposure to aggressive, sexist music—I am not saying you
are playing it in your programme—do you think there is a
risk that constant exposure can be part of a desensitising of
young people to the implications of that?
Mr Drakes: Their lives are constantly
exposed to those same risks therefore they are desensitised before
they even put the CD in the player.
Q454 Chairman: Another young man
has tragically lost his life in Streatham. You would accept that
whether they are broadcast or not there are a lot of lyrics around
that the way to respond to violence is violence. Even if it does
stem from people lives, is there a problem in promoting the view
that a rational response to the murder of a young man in Streatham
is to kill another young man? Over the last 10 years we have seen
the escalation of these deaths. Surely the music is not neutral
in that; it is not just talking about what is going on.
Mr Drakes: At no point have I
denied the music's effect. Saturday night was an extreme example
but Saturday night in London was no different to Saturday night
in Southampton where a chav got murdered for nothing. Anywhere
you have disenfranchised youths running around the streets with
nothing to do, no money, you will have these same problems. It
happens in black communities in black areas, it happens in white
communities in Grimsby or Hull. I have been around the country
so I know. Therefore, to point the finger at just one thing, like
I said before, music is a small thing compared to Hollywood, video
games, the internet.
Q455 Ms Buck: Although it is proportionally,
you are all arguing against that contention. What you are saying
is how important music is to the expression and identity of young
urban kids. I am not sure you can have both arguments.
Mr Drakes: What we are trying
to say is music has created an infrastructure for them to give
hope to be somebody. It engages them on a daily level. Right now
in studios all across the UK there are young people with tape
machines and digital machines trying to make something of their
lives. If you open up other avenues for them to make something
of their lives, more of them will come away from music and start
doing other things. They will become film people and doctors and
lawyers, all these other avenues. As I said, because of our failings
as adults within education, first and foremost, most of them,
by the time they get to 12 or 13, cannot do anything else.
Q456 Ms Buck: Young people could
have that passion and opportunity to explore themselves through
music without, at the same time, having such a high proportion
of the music they are exposed to being aggressive.
Mr Drakes: For example, Will Smith
raps. He is a famous actor and he raps. You love Will Smith. When
he raps he does not swear, he says he does not swear; he writes
about positivity, love and flowers. That is his life and that
is how he grew up. Even before he became famous he is from a really
residential area of Philadelphia, Mum and Dad at home, a dog,
et cetera. 50 Cent, who is also a famous rapper as well, his mother
was murdered when he was eight and his father he never knew. What
do you expect from those two individuals as far as the dialogue
of their lives? What do you expect them to talk about? Will Smith
does what Will Smith does. We are not even mentioning him. He
sold millions of records and is on our big screens every day as
a positive role model but we are not talking about him, are we?
Mr Parfitt: I have something to
add on this point. As a broadcaster, as opposed to just a music
stream, the role model of the DJs, the speech content that I have
described earlier, do come together to make a cumulative and very
strong powerful service with a very positive message, I hope,
to all young audiences. Part of that mix has to be the credibility
of actually reflecting the broadest range of music.
Mr Tyler: A lot of it is about
role models. I think some of the young people need more and better
role models.
Q457 Ms Buck: One of the other concerns
is the extent to which there has been some violence associated
with clubs and gigs. I wonder whether you would argue that is
inevitable where you have the urban scene concentrated in the
clubs or whether there is something going on.
Mr Drakes: It is nothing to do
with the actual venue. That is where people congregate and if
there are arguments between individuals you are going to find
it where people congregate. Most of the clubs are closed now.
There are not many clubs any more. I have been DJ-ing a long time
and five years ago there were urban clubs everywhere across the
UK. Most clubs now, because of the way the community has gone,
have actually closed down. I am fine with that. I do not want
to see anyone get hurt. Someone got murdered in a club I was playing
in before on the South coast in Bournemouth. I am glad they have
shut even though it has affected my work.
Mr Parfitt: There is something
else here about the role of the BBC. We have the live events programme,
both Radio 1 and 1Xtra, and we have never so far had any incident
at those club events. The care and attention to health and safety,
security, and so on is something that we can bring because enjoying
music together is a pretty important part.
Chairman: I will move on because we have
another set of witnesses. There will be some more questions your
way I am sure.
Q458 Mr Benyon: To a degree you two
have lost a proportion of the control that your predecessors had
over content. I can remember when Radio 1 tried to ban Relax
by Frankie Goes to Hollywood. It was impossible and a ridiculous
thing to do and boosted sales of that particular track enormously.
Now, as Roger was saying, it is much more anarchic and that is
part of the attraction to young people. There are so many more
different ways of producing music that the actual control you
have over the output is less now. 20 years ago Radio 1 and a few
other channels were the sole access point young people had for
music.
Mr Tyler: It is more fragmented.
Mr Parfitt: If you are 16 years
old you have never known life without a fast internet connection
in school and the penetration of broadband in homes. The younger
end of the demographic, if you have young children or teenagers
in your household you are more likely to be connected up. That
is why Radio 1 and 1Xtra have focused far more on digital provision
because that is where particularly the younger end of the market
are going for their media. The method of distribution, also MySpace
and Bebo and Bluetooth on mobile phones, is in the hands of the
audience. It is a fact.
Mr Tyler: A few videos are often
rejected straight away but many are sent back for editing to take
out some images and to edit the lyrics, but if you want to be
a hip hop artist today you have to have a web page, you have to
be on MySpace, and there is nothing to stop those artists putting
the unedited version on the internet. I have looked at some of
these and they have in excess of 50,000 hits in a month, and that
is the unedited version, the full blown version. In media terms,
that is competing with us. In the roundness of things, that is
another area that needs addressing because people can access these
things through the internet and you can download from all of these
sites.
Q459 Mr Benyon: In answering that
question I do not want to let you off the hook. You are governed
by the Broadcasting Code which we have already discussed and I
quote from it: "Programmes must not include material . .
. which condones or glamorises violent, dangerous or seriously
antisocial behaviour and is likely to encourage others to copy
such behaviour." This is the point I wanted to come on to.
How do you interpret that in terms of how you decide whether or
not a song or a video is glamorising or condoning violence?
Mr Tyler: Violence or the after
effects of violence. We do practice that all the time. We do not
censor—I do not like the word censor—but we have a
process that filters video submissions. We look at them in technical
terms, overall appearance, and a few of them have to be looked
at for compliance. We have sent back videos to be edited because
it has shown play fighting in the street which resulted in a young
man being kicked on the floor. It was only part of the fun of
the video. The video was not a song about violence; it was just
part of the imagery. We sent it back to be edited and they blurred
out that scene from the video and they resubmitted it and we were
able to play it.
| 
