Examination of Witnesses (Questions 460
- 470)
TUESDAY 6 FEBRUARY 2007
MR ROGER
DRAKES AKA
DJ DODGE, MR
BOB TYLER
AND MR
ANDY PARFITT
Q460 Mr Benyon: You censored it?
Mr Tyler: Filtered it.
Q461 Mr Benyon: Roger was talking
earlier about 50 Cent. There surely is a difference between talking
about the miserable upbringing he had and all those experiences
and that being behind his creativity, and that is entirely legitimate
and it would be terrible to lose that, people have been doing
it down the years—Bruce Springsteen—but where the
line stops is where it goes to glorifying that. As a producer
you have to decide where that line is.
Mr Drakes: I believe that 50 Cent's
glorification of his life and his riches is no different from
MTV Cribs. Has anyone seen that?
Q462 Mr Benyon: Yes, my children
live on it, and Pimp my Ride.
Mr Drakes: We live in a society
where if you do not have that you are not doing the damned thing,
as it were, and you are seen as a bit of a nobody. If you have
not got a Ferrari in the drive, it is pumped down our throats
every day in movies more so than music. That in itself has as
much effect on young people's minds as the average record of a
gangsta rapper with a big chain. It is all relevant to the way
we live, wouldn't you say?
Q463 Mr Benyon: I am still not sure
I have got a clear indication of where talking about one's background
and about problems that are all around you are being—
Mr Drakes: Let me say it another
way.
Mr Tyler: This is about people
getting respect as well. In your neighbourhood or wherever, if
you say, "I've got a song on pirate radio. I've got a video
on Channel U", that is cool.
Mr Drakes: Like I said, it is
almost like you get respect for being a prolific MP, no doubt.
Q464 Mr Benyon: Prolific!
Mr Drakes: Rappers want the same
respect. They want their friends and peers around them to say,
"That was good, you're the man", and they get that from
music, by putting down a dog verse, as it were. Do you see what
I mean? 50 Cent was basically poor, broke and hungry for 25 years,
he became very rich in two years, so what do you expect him to
talk about? He is going to brag, "Hey, I just won the lottery".
That is how he lives, that is how his life is, because he spent
25 years getting shot at, having to do whatever he did, the obvious
stuff. He has only been famous for a couple of years. Let us always
bear in mind that 50 Cent or any of his crew do not market, promote
or push his product. If he made 20 million out of record sales
imagine what Universal Music, who is nothing to do with the hood,
as it were, would make out of pimping his product. We are missing
out on so many things here, aren't we? We are talking about Channel
U and a few little £400 videos that are made in Hackney,
that is such a small thing in the big picture.
Q465 Mrs Dean: Before I go on to
my main question, Andy mentioned warnings and putting on a warning
before some records came on. What impact do you think that has
because in my opinion it probably means that the young person
would watch and listen to it even more?
Mr Parfitt: That is always a danger.
We try to do it in a style that is in keeping with the programme.
I have to say to the Committee that the most referrals that I
get in terms of strong language are often not hip hop at all,
it is from heavy metal rock, at the moment that seems to be where
producers are referring up to me where a decision needs to be
taken. That said, we would try to give the warning in a way that
does not undermine the warning, if you know what I mean. We would
have star voices give the warning in a straightforward and humorous
way rather than a finger-wagging way. We would ask the DJ to play
it straight, to say, "Look, this is a record I want to play,
I think it is good, it has got some strong language in it".
The late John Peel was probably one of the ones who found giving
the warnings more tricky than others because he believed that
it was his programme and the expectations of the audience were
that they knew what John would provide in terms of music so he
did not need to give a warning. Nonetheless, he did give the warnings,
and we do give the warnings, but we try to do it in a way that
is in keeping with the style of the programme and the style of
the station.
Q466 Mrs Dean: Can we move on to
solutions. To what extent do you believe there is a need for some
greater leadership from either the regulator or from government
about the types of images and lyrics which should or should not
be broadcast? I suppose this is wider than just music. How feasible
is any of that regulation when you have got the internet disseminating
music?
Mr Parfitt: I would say it illustrates
how important it is that stations like Radio 1 and 1Xtra remain
relevant and are impacting generally with young audiences in the
UK. I think that the remit of those organisations is to take part
in outreach activity with young musicians in the community, to
put on live events in areas of the country where quality live
events do not usually get staged, and it is important that we
continue with our news services and interweave them in an intelligent
way which engages with the young audience. We have got to keep
on tackling the issues but tackling them in a credible way with
a tone of voice, with a group of young producers and young members
of staff. I am not a policy maker outside the BBC but I see that
as a pretty central part of the role of both Radio 1 and 1Xtra.
Q467 Mrs Dean: Could the regulator
or the government do any more?
Mr Parfitt: As I say, I am not
a policy maker. I understand the role of the BBC in all of this
which is to build public value with all audiences, but including
young audiences, particularly all young audiences including those
from ethnic minority, which is one of the reasons why a station
like 1Xtra exists. We are funded to prosecute those values, if
you like, to carry on doing that work.
Mr Tyler: I think on the subject
of regulation we had a new regulator in 2003 whose main remit
was a light touch with broadcasters and they measure outputs according
to their codes. I am not sure we could persuade Ofcom to rewrite
the codes to that extent. If you were to, you would drive things
underground and the internet would thrive even more with this
type of material and perhaps there would be another resurgence
of pirate radio. Every now and again it seems to get cut down
and comes back again. In government terms, I think it is to do
with addressing the role models of the young people and trying
to break the cycle and find out more about why young people think
it is necessary to write and perform such lyrics.
Q468 Mrs Dean: Roger, do you think
the Government could do any more? You raised the issue about films.
Mr Drakes: This whole discussion
is headed down a censorship road and it is almost asking for trouble
if anything because, as me and Bob both pointed out, this is a
great opportunity, an avenue for these kids to engage themselves.
If it was censored or cut off from them in any way they would
just be on the street corner waiting for something to happen,
which is what you do not want. Secondly, we are in an internet
age where everyone can get everything via the internet, anything
you want to see you can see it. By stopping it being on an FM
radio is not going to make any difference at all. As I keep saying,
we have to create a generation of youth who understand things
and are educated and are not affected by criminal minds. I do
not think any criminal wants to be a criminal, I do not believe
that, but I believe if you get a kid and bring him up in a certain
way and he is desensitised to everything that is right about life
then he attaches himself to wrong and there is no-one to tell
him any different. As Bob said, we need more role models and not
unreachable models, not just football players or big famous rap
stars, I am talking about attainable role models so they have
hope: "I can be that, I can be like him". I guarantee
none of those groups think they can be like you guys. Personally
I have a nephew who has got a degree in politics but he is a from
a minority, as you say, a very disproportionate minority. The
majority in Hackney and all the different boroughs would not understand
half of the words being spoken today because they failed from
12, 13 years old in school. If I may just make one more point.
I was at Lambeth College giving a class last week and a kid around
19 or 20 years old was in the class and I was speaking, talking
about music production and that kind of stuff, and he was one
of the ones who were talking, most of them did not talk that much
which in itself shows you their mindset, but this one was chatting
and every other sentence was, "What was that? What does that
mean?" and I was having to speak more commonly, as it were,
to get my point across. I made a point about "mum and dad",
I just said it in the context of what I was talking about, and
he said, "I don't speak to none of my family". You just
have to imagine they are different, they have a different life
completely from anything that most of us understand.
Q469 Mrs Dean: The last question
from me is, is there anything else that can be done to ensure
opportunities are there for young people to make music in a positive
way?
Mr Drakes: More can always be
done, yes.
Mrs Dean: Any suggestions?
Q470 Chairman: What?
Mr Drakes: When I was a kid I
lived on a housing estate and 300 or 400 yards either side of
the housing estate there were two youth clubs—boys centres
I think they were called or boys clubs—and after school
I remember you did not have anything to do, you looked forward
to getting into the boys club and you had snooker, pool, Space
Invaders, various adults around to supervise you, mentor you,
stop you from doing things, and we respected them. Those were
the people I remember from between the ages of 11, say, and 16.
I remember those people clearly. Nowadays my nephew is in Thornton
Heath and there is nothing at all, he spends all day at home on
the internet from 3.30 onwards after school until he goes to bed.
He is on the internet doing his own thing, as it were, Bebo, MySpace
websites, and there is nothing for him to do to engage in. There
are no adults around him to—
Mr Tyler: I think the government
could get behind legitimate schemes that are easy to access. I
have been watching one of the younger TV stations that had Arts
Council money but filling out the forms and the way in which the
money comes and everything else is something where young people
do not want to read forms, they cannot be bothered to write out
more than two boxes of information. Making things far more accessible
is not just about money, it is about supporting partnerships,
legitimate projects, allowing access to young people and perhaps
even working with people like us in terms of offering an outlet
for their music with 1Xtra or whatever. We are always happy to
listen to all ideas.
Mr Parfitt: From my perspective,
I think that this session is useful insofar as to understand the
role of organisations like 1Xtra and Radio 1 and not to see it
in a stereotypical way that sometimes I think it is when it is
held up as playing rap music or making too much noise, but to
understand the role it has is much, much broader than simply supporting
new music, it has a social role, a democratic role as part of
the BBC. It is wonderful to recognise the work that is going on.
There is something also about celebrating what young audiences,
young music makers do. In my job I see tens of thousands of under-25s
every year enjoying music, taking part in music events, being
enthusiastic about new sounds and being creative in a way that
I think is remarkable and positive. That needs to be in our minds
as well.
Chairman: Gentlemen, thank you very much
indeed. That has been a very helpful session, thank you very much.
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