Select Committee on Home Affairs Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 480 - 499)

TUESDAY 6 FEBRUARY 2007

MR MELVYN DAVIS AND MR NEIL SOLO

  Q480  Mr Streeter: Do you think there is a specific link between that kind of family structure, and particularly I am exercised about the issue of fatherlessness and that relates to any community and every community, and young people, particularly young boys, getting involved in crime from the work that you have been doing? Could you speak to that, please, Mr Davis.

  Mr Davis: I would say yes. In all the areas that we work within, which cover all the areas of social exclusion, the vast majority of the young people that we work with have very poor relationships or no contact at all with their fathers.

  Q481  Mr Streeter: Yes.

  Mr Davis: The impact of that is seen very much in the sense of identity and needing to belong somewhere, needing to validate who they are as males and men and that creates a vulnerability. It creates a vulnerability if, for instance, you are not successful in terms of education, or you do not have other things to compensate for that, and as a result of that you then compromise who you are in order to fit in, you go to extreme lengths or you create a caricature almost of masculinity in order to prove yourself. With a number of the boys that we work with the impact for them in not having a positive role model, in growing up in reality in a lot of cases in a very predominantly female environment, means they almost reject at some point in their journey towards masculinity a lot of what I would call life skills and emotional literacy that they need in order to cope with change, loss and disappointment. So we have boys with very narrow definitions of masculinity, behavioural traits that are very much around the machismo type behaviour, and this need underneath it all to connect with other men and other boys.

  Q482  Mr Streeter: That is very helpful.

  Mr Solo: I would support what Melvyn is saying in the sense that fathers are so important that the lack of a father in the life of a young person can promote something called "father hunger". Along with what Melvyn was saying, young boys have to develop and work out for themselves what it is to be a man and, given the context of the last discussion, working out what it is to be a man you learn to draw from a wider society and if that wider society is violent, is promoting getting by by any means you can, that child becomes vulnerable to that message without that father who is the best role model a child could have. I would definitely support, and this is borne out by the work we have done throughout the communities, that families are extremely important in the lives of young boys and young girls.

  Mr Davis: If I could just pick up on something you said. I believe that it is something that affects all communities, classes, races, et cetera, but there is a particular dynamic in the black community, in black and ethnic communities as well, being in a predominantly white society in that you have to validate yourself as a male but you also have to validate yourself as a black male and that does have a compound effect, it does make it much more intense and, therefore, there are risks along the way in terms of finding your place in society but also being validated along the way in that process.

  Q483  Mr Benyon: Mr Solo, we are interested in the evidence that you have provided on the way you have described the moving from traditional African Caribbean parenting methods to more modern methods, and you described it as a revision that is work in progress, and talked about the impact of this on setting boundaries and discipline. We have evidence from people who have deplored the lack of discipline amongst young people in their own communities saying it is a problem they have to address themselves. Can you say a bit more about this problem and the impact it is having on young people?

  Mr Solo: Yes. There I was referring to the revision that is potentially taking place in the African Caribbean community. In the Caribbean the use of corporal punishment and physical discipline is not unheard of. It is not abusive but it is not unheard of. In the movement to, I would not say a modern society, I would say to European society where corporal punishment is not the first option, we have a people who have to seek new ways of enforcing discipline in guiding their youth. As I said in the written evidence, this is a work in progress. As this revision takes place the loosening of the ties between family and child can be loosened and allow for the more destructive elements of youth culture to take place. Also in that move from the Caribbean to England, Caribbean peoples, not to romanticise that community, exercise the idea that it takes a whole village to raise a child. Where we find ourselves now operating in nuclear family units the village is no longer there, so when Johnny is down the road committing graffiti or whatever that can often get overlooked. If we were operating on it takes a whole village to raise a child, adults in that community would feel a responsibility for that child, for that community and could intervene. These traditional ties are loosening and it creates a gap.

  Q484  Mr Benyon: That is the problem and we are trying to find a solution. That is a really interesting area of thought that we have got to consider. How can we get communities to take responsibility for that child in the way that they did perhaps, or still do, in the Caribbean?

  Mr Solo: I think in the African Caribbean community, and from the context in which I am working we can see the important link between fathers and the outcomes for children, what we would like to see, or what we would like to suggest, is a celebration of fatherhood. What we have here is black men and fathers who are subject to the most negative stereotypes. I feel in talking with African Caribbean men throughout the country that this has robbed them of a confidence that they need to assert themselves as fathers and as community members. It is not lost on that community and African Caribbean men and youth that they are overrepresented in the mental health system, they are over represented in the penal system and African Caribbean children are disproportionately excluded from schools. This is not lost on men and the community which tends to weaken it and its ability to enforce its protective role, especially in regards to fathers who are seen as mad, bad or sad. In talking with fathers they feel devalued. What we would have to do is to continue to work with African Caribbean men and the community to celebrate the gifts that fathers have to offer.

  Q485  Mr Benyon: Could we extend that, Mr Davis. You have both drawn attention to the existence of a negative self-image amongst black males. Do you have any thoughts as to the root causes of this in the same way that Mr Solo has expressed?

  Mr Davis: I think it starts very much with the family and the early years experiences of children. Most things you have to look at to really understand and appreciate the context and the environment in which these children have grown up and the messages that they are constantly being given. The overt ones I think we have done very well as a society in dampening down but throughout life and throughout the journey of a black man growing up there are so many messages and pitfalls, negative messages and, as a consequence, pitfalls that arise. To give an example: in some of the work that we do we get young people to think very much about what it is that makes them who they are and top of the list will often be "I am black" and then you ask them what does that mean and it actually does not mean anything, it has not got anything of substance. It is not a culture in the same way that other cultures exist, it is fluid, not substantive. What makes you black as an individual is often a response to the discrimination and negativity that you face. If that is the basis upon which you are developing your identity and personality it then has a tendency to be quite defensive, negative obviously and almost entirely self-deprecating because you do not see yourself as an equal within society, you are somebody who is tolerated, somebody who has undue power and influence in that you walk into a room and people pick up their mobile phones or readjust themselves because you enter a room, people react to you, the security guard in a shop will spend more time focusing on you and children, black boys in particular, are aware of these things. That sends very powerful messages about acceptance and belonging and it has a detrimental impact on the notion of citizenship and acceptance.

  Q486  Mr Benyon: We have had evidence from people who say that if our report does not find that young black people face enormous amounts of discrimination and racism in their daily lives we will be part of the problem as much as anything. I suppose what I am really trying to ask you is how much of it is perception and how much of it is reality? You have spoken about everyday factors in people's lives which affect their self-esteem and can contribute to problems that they may get into. In everyday life, is racism and discrimination a real burdensome, horrendous factor in young black males' lives?

  Mr Davis: I would answer it in this way. When you grow up as a black male in an ethnic minority, as I have already said, because you are not validated by wider society you have these things that you draw to yourself to validate yourself. Speaking personally, and characterising that with some of the young people I work with, the analogy would be you wake up in the morning and you may pick up your iPod, your mobile phone and then you pick up your paranoia because as you go through life the moment you step outside that door there are people you are going to meet who will react to you and you have no idea why they are reacting to you in that way. If I am dressed as I am today and I sit on a Tube and there is a seat beside me, that seat will be taken up quite quickly, but if I am dressed very differently, as I sometimes am, much more sporty, relaxed casual attire, often that seat will not be taken even when there are no other seats available, people will choose to stand. I can choose to ignore that but that does not mean I am unaware of it.

  Q487  Mr Winnick: Would that not happen to a white person who was dressed in the sort of clothes you are mentioning? Would there not be some hesitation, not because of the colour of the skin but simply because of the possibility of criminality which could come as easily from a white or Asian person as a black person? Would you not accept that?

  Mr Davis: I would accept that as a possibility but given my history—

  Q488  Mr Winnick: More so as a black person?

  Mr Davis: Exactly.

  Q489  Mr Winnick: I accept that.

  Mr Davis: It is that perception that becomes reality. If it is real for me then it is real.

  Q490  Mr Benyon: You are saying that in these circumstances perception is reality.

  Mr Davis: Very much so.

  Q491  Mr Benyon: Regardless of why that seat is empty you believe it is empty because of the colour of your skin.

  Mr Davis: But I do not think it ends there. I think it is about the other protective factors: how do I deal with that? Everybody will face discrimination in their lives but do I have other skills or things to offset that or if my identity is just about my colour and my ethnicity I do not have other things to offset that with. My self-esteem, my self-worth and my self-efficacy are not just around whether you sit next to me on a bus or a train, I have other things that make me feel good about myself; a lot of these young people do not.

  Q492  Mr Benyon: We went down to Bristol to look at a scheme there and these points were all being made by an organisation called Right Track but when the individual who followed these cases up with the young people, going to the school or to see the police and was saying, "There has been an allegation of discrimination here", in nearly all of them there may have been ignorance but it was not racism. What I am trying to get to the bottom of, and perhaps Mr Solo might like to comment, is how we tackle that difference between perception and reality and whether the two are the same.

  Mr Solo: From the way people act perception is reality. However, I would revisit the point I made earlier in terms of the question is racism playing a part. I think the messages that the young black youth receive are very specific. When we had the killings of Anthony Walker and Stephen Lawrence this was saying "This is a racist killing" and this sends out a message to young African Caribbean youth that they have less stake in this society than possibly they do perceive.

  Q493  Mrs Cryer: We need to look for solutions, there is no point just keeping trawling over where we are now, that will not help. Can I just check with you that I have got something right. According to our graphs, 57% of the families within the black Caribbean community are lone parents. Am I right in saying that were those families still in Jamaica the percentage would be pretty similar, there would still be this majority of parents, mothers, bringing up children alone but I think what you are saying, Neil, is the difference would be that they would be helped along that path by a supportive village or community? Have I got that right?

  Mr Solo: Yes.

  Q494  Mrs Cryer: We are where we are, so what could either of you suggest that would be the strongest single thing that could happen to help steer young black people away from a life of crime given the position that we are in now?

  Mr Solo: It is an incredibly complex argument and one that is not going to be solved overnight. From our point of view at Barnardo's and the Babyfather initiative and the work that Barnardo's has been doing in the community, the feedback that we are getting would suggest that we are some way along the right track. Again, for us this is about bringing that community together, helping them to recognise that they are a community, going beyond working as a community, working directly with fathers, celebrating fathers as a positive resource as the most appropriate role model a child could have. In terms of solutions and turning children away from deviant behaviour, from our point of view we would suggest more work in the communities, more work with parents, and in that regard we welcome the Government's initiative, the National Academy for Parenting Practitioners, as a good move in this area.

  Mr Davis: I think we are all familiar with the realities of the overrepresentation and disproportionate number of black people who are in the criminal justice system and end up in prison. The reality that we face and work within is that many of these young people go into prison, youth offending institutions, come out and go back into their same communities and as a result they have less hope, if you like, than they had before. Before they went in they maybe were failing in school but now they have come out with poor education and a criminal record. They then go back into their communities and really only have one option, which is to not get caught next time. I think that is one area that I would like to see some real work and effort put into to ensure that those young people who do come out are not just left to, as it were, train up the next generation of young people. One other area of social exclusion for me that I think is scandalous and really we should be making much more of a political, if needs be, or community campaign around is the high number of young black males who are excluded from school. I think that is the beginning really. Once you fail to be educated properly your options, your resources, how you are viewed in society, all of those things impact greatly on your life chances and outcomes. I know schools which have experiences of 30 or so young boys in a particular year being excluded. I was talking to a young person not too long ago who said to me that every single black boy in his class before year 11 had been excluded. Often that is for reasons that I would consider with a little effort and probably some accountability, if schools were picked up on these things, through Ofsted reports, et cetera, they should not be happening on the scale and level that they are and we are allowing to happen and not making a big song and dance about it. Going back to what Neil said, it sends a very powerful message about, "Am I valued? Am I accepted within society?" If we can have such large cohorts of black young males excluded from the educational system and nothing is said on a national level, it does not make the news, as it were, then what message is that saying to "How am I valued? How am I viewed within society?" If black males are shot and killed on the streets and that does not make the news and does not result in a big campaign, again it sends a very powerful message about how we are viewed. We need to be far more angry, far more militant almost, about making sure that we do identify why these things are happening and we put stringent things in place to make sure they do not. I do not think it is that difficult but the will has not materialised or the way has not been identified in the way that it should have been and resources have not been applied effectively.

  Mr Solo: Could I just add in terms of solutions that Barnardo's and the Babyfather initiative have attempted to be proactive in this area and we have developed two specific training programmes that we are particularly proud of. We spent the best part of 2005 speaking with practitioners from a variety of settings, from social workers to teenage pregnancy workers and health visitors, and the message we got from that dialogue was the central difficulty that they were having was one of engagement. We have been proactive in this regard in developing a training programme specifically for practitioners who are having difficulty engaging African Caribbean men, engaging them in their services. In terms of solutions and being proactive, Barnardo's have developed a culturally specific parenting programme for African Caribbean fathers. Again, this is to meet the demand that fathers have expressed to us and we have identified ourselves. The parenting programmes are there but services are not reaching the community, so what we have done is we have developed something that is culturally specific and we have had some opportunity to try this out over the year and it has proved successful.

  Q495  Mrs Cryer: My next question was what the Government can do to address the problems that are causing young people to become involved in crime. I think you have answered it. Neil, I think you said perhaps money can go through social services, presumably, to encourage better parenting within the community. If you could say to the Government, "Can you give us help?", would that be what you would be asking for now?

  Mr Solo: I work for Barnardo's in the voluntary sector and I see that particular sector of society engendering more trust from the community. I am not so sure we would have had the success we have had if our community was getting that from the local authority. I think the success of the Barnardo's Babyfather initiative has been based on the fact that it has been from the voluntary sector and that engenders more trust in the community. In terms of what the Government could do specifically for ourselves and for other groups in the area, that is to open up lines of dialogue, distribute programmes that have been developed. I mentioned away from the voluntary sector, the Government moves around the National Academy for Parenting Practitioners, which is a wonderful idea in terms of equipping the workforce to work more effectively with this group.

  Q496  Mrs Cryer: Melvyn, would your request to government, if you were able to do that, be to put more resources through local education authorities and schools in order to try to keep more black boys within the school system much longer than we are achieving at the moment? Do you think that would be the best way of directing government funding to keep those same black men out of the criminal justice system?

  Mr Davis: Yes, I would agree with most of that. I think what I would be saying is that money would need to be ring-fenced, that money would need to be both given to schools and to voluntary sector community groups who may be better able to work with that young person or also work with parents as well. It needs to be long-term because this is not a problem that can be solved with a year or two years' funding. We have a cycle, a generational problem that we need to tackle here, and there needs to be a long-term commitment to addressing that. If we can tackle the leakage from the education system we will begin to see young people coming out with more options, with more choices. The young people that I have to spend time working with too often feel that they have no choice and we spend a long time trying to convince them that they do have choices. From the starting point that they are often coming from when they are 17 or 18 years of age and cannot read or write, their self-esteem, their sense of being a man, hoping that will change whilst their emotional development is severely stunted and limited, that is the difficulty that we face. We are failing them educationally in so many different ways and it is not just about academic education it is preparing them for life and the environments that they exist in. We can always look and say not every single parent family has these problems but we can see that too many do and often there are other protective factors in those single parent families that need to be recognised and too many of the families that we work with are isolated, vulnerable and do not have the resources to deal with that.

  Martin Salter: Melvyn, I just want to follow up something you said that rang some bells with me. I am very interested in re-offending and this revolving door that we have got. You said that a lot of young black males are coming out of prison even less able to get a job outside of the criminal networks than they were before they went into prison so they are more likely to re-offend. There are some schemes rattling around that take lads from prison and give them training, education and a work placement, so there is a completely different pathway for those kids, another option for those young men when they come out of prison. I may be wrong but from what I have seen in some of these schemes black people were not particularly highly represented in that approach. Can I just get your reaction starting from the point of particularly young black men who are coming out of prison, and who are almost certainly going to be back there again, almost certainly going to re-offend, and targeting intervention at that point to enable them to develop the skills to get a job.

  Chairman: This is becoming quite a long question, Martin.

  Q497  Martin Salter: Two hours of pent-up thought.

  Mr Davis: One of the earliest experiences I had of working with young people was in Aylesbury Prison, a young offenders' institution, and I remember working with a group of young people in there and the statistics at that time were 17-18% of young offenders would re-offend before they were 18. I had a group of 10 and I was saying, "Seven or eight of you are going to be back in here within two years" and every single one of them said, "No, I'm not coming back. This is my last time". But when we began to explore what that meant in reality, they were going back into communities, they had made their resolutions they were not going to go back and they may have had a GCSE O level certificate that they had got whilst they were inside which made them feel great, made them feel "I've got real life choices when I come out of here, I'm going to get a job. I didn't get this in formal education but I got this inside", but they go out and any employer would then say, "Where have you been? What have you been doing?" You can see those young people being crushed and when they come back into those communities, those communities have not moved on, they are still very much the same communities supporting their experiences that led them to commit those offences. They may have made those choices but the support for them to maintain that at the point when they come out is not often there and it is not there in a form that makes a difference. This was one of the reasons why when we established our mentoring programme, our mentoring programme works with young people for two to three years because in the work that I do I think it is very easy to help young people to feel uncomfortable with themselves or maybe even feel guilty about things they have done but to get them to change, to move from that to be different, the cost of that is often to move away from their friends and the environment that has often supported that, and that is extremely difficult.

  Q498  Chairman: Can I take this a bit further because we have talked a lot in one way or another about professional and funded support for parenting skills, for families and young people. To what extent should we be putting down a challenge to the communities from which these young people come to take more responsibility, to show leadership towards young people? I am probably misinterpreting what you were saying but I get this almost negative message that things in communities are so bad this is going to have to be done through the voluntary sector, through social services, but not through communities themselves.

  Mr Davis: I certainly think that communities have a role to play but we also have to look at the place of those communities within society, who has the power and who has the accountability at the end of the day. Most of the communities that are vulnerable and overrepresented do not have the leadership, the resources or the infrastructure to actually make those changes and they need a lot of support in order to make those things happen. Some of the things that I am alluding to do not actually cost a lot of money; it is the structure. There is a lot of money that is given towards supporting vulnerable families in communities but I would be very interested to know how much of that is in real terms geared towards or actually making an impact in the black community. Most of the programmes that we get called in to work with are asked to engage with hard-to-reach communities. For me a black community is not a hard-to-reach community because I am from there but for another organisation that is coming from outside of that area, they may have been successful in obtaining that funding but they then have a big bridge to cross in terms of how to engage with those communities. That is why we place the emphasis on voluntary organisations or community organisations being better resourced and given the infrastructure and maybe supported or mentored by other organisations so that they can tackle problems because ultimately I believe it is the black community itself that could and should solve this problem.

  Q499  Chairman: Brief answers from both of you following on from that because it may be in your written evidence; can you just describe how you measure the effectiveness of the work that each of your organisations does. This is a difficult issue so how would you want to be measured or assessed on the effectiveness of your work? Mr Solo?

  Mr Solo: In terms of the work that we do and in terms of the work that we are trying to do—and that is to change the value base of for example a father so that he can be more responsible and more consistent in his parenting—it is very difficult to measure. However, the success in what we have done we can measure in a number of ways. The usual feedback sheets at the end of our sessions from the fathers themselves say it has been helpful in informing them. The fact that fathers—and I think this is the beauty of the voluntary sector—come back week after week or month after month and there is no compulsion. I feel that there is something in what Barnardo's Babyfather is offering fathers and the community that is valued and is authentic and fathers are voting with their feet. In terms of further evaluation of our work, we have had Manchester and Liverpool adopt our model of working with African Caribbean men, this hard-to-reach group, and they have been quite successful and are now working with fathers in their own communities themselves, which links back to your previous point about responsibility.


 
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