Examination of Witnesses (Questions 502
- 519)
TUESDAY 27 FEBRUARY 2007
DEPUTY ASSISTANT
COMMISSIONER CRESSIDA
DICK, CHIEF
CONSTABLE PETER
FAHY AND
SUPERINTENDENT LEROY
LOGAN MBE
Q502 Chairman: Good morning. Thank
you very much for coming. As you know, we are now drawing to the
end of the inquiry the Committee has been running into Young Black
People and the Criminal Justice System looking at the extent and
any possible causes of the overrepresentation of young black people
in the system. Obviously the recent tragic shootings give a particular
focus to the inquiry, although today we want to look at a broader
set of issues around the criminal justice system and not just
the issues of gun crime—although we will touch on those.
Perhaps I could ask you to introduce yourselves for the record,
please.
Chief Constable Fahy: I am Peter
Fahy. I am Chief Constable of Cheshire but also lead for ACPO
(the Association of Chief Police Officers) on race and diversity
issues.
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Dick:
Cressida Dick from the Metropolitan Police. I am the Met's lead
on gun crime and the ACPO lead for gun crime prevention.
Superintendent Logan: I am Leroy
Logan, Superintendent of Hackney Police. I am the Deputy Borough
Commander and the lead on partnership issues.
Q503 Chairman: Thank you. Before
I go into the questions, I have to read out a statement about
the sub judice rule in relation to the recent shootings.
At today's hearing we will be discussing issues related to young
black people and the criminal justice system. Some of the questioning
will relate to gang culture and gun crime. I should make it clear
to the press and the public that there are some restrictions on
our questioning which arise from our House's sub judice
rule. This rule prevents discussion in Parliament on cases which
are actively before the courts or the subject of active inquests.
The aim of the rule is to safeguard the right to a fair hearing.
It is also important that Parliament and the courts give mutual
recognition to their respective roles and do not interfere in
each other's affairs. There have been a number of recent gun-related
deaths in London which have received widespread publicity. All
of these cases are sub judice because inquests have opened
and in one case charges have been brought. I should follow that
there should be no discussion of the details of those cases and
nothing should be said in this hearing, either by members of the
Committee or the witnesses, which might be deemed prejudicial
in any forthcoming court proceedings. I will ensure that the sub
judice rule is not broken. However, I will permit questioning
on some of the broader issues relating to the nature of the communities
and of the lives of the young people in which these shootings
took place. I should add that I consulted Mr Speaker about this
and he is content with that approach. Chief Constable, could I
start with a big question to you and a very important one. We
have had a lot of evidence that there is an overrepresentation
of young black people in the criminal justice system. Could you
briefly summarise for me what the main things are that the police
service has done in response to that overrepresentation.
Chief Constable Fahy: It has been
a huge range of initiatives essentially, particularly coming from
the time of the Scarman Report and then reaching right through
the Stephen Lawrence Report and even the report as a result of
the Secret Policeman television programme. Really the whole
tenor of that work has been about trying to build closer relationships
with all the communities that we serve, making sure that policing
is sensitive to the needs of those different communities but also,
crucially, that policing is seen to be accountable. Going back
to the Scarman Report, we set up local policing consultative committees
and from those a whole range of initiatives to try to create closer
relationships, and particularly for the police to be seen as being
accountable. Clearly the Stephen Lawrence case was hugely important
for the police service, and a whole range of initiatives have
been put in place, particularly in terms of the way we deal with
black people as victims. Again, there has been a huge range of
initiatives in terms of our own staff—the accountability
of our own staff; the degree of monitoring; the involvement of
independent advisory groups; improvements to training; lots of
changes that we brought in as a result of the Secret Policeman
programme, some of which had already been planned before that
programme, in terms of changing the way people are recruited;
the way that our new recruits are trained in their local community;
improvements to diversity training; a huge amount of work around
stop and search, which we can go to in greater detail—but
I think one of the most important developments has been our commitment
to neighbourhood policing, which is a commitment right across
the police service to create local teams of officers in local
areas. This is not about having more officers, essentially, just
on patrol in yellow jackets building positive relations; it is
really trying to make sure that local policing meets the needs
of those local people and that those local people, through local
consultative processes, surveys, local meetings, have a chance
to influence what those local officers are doing. It is clearly
to involve more people in that community effort, through things
like volunteering, the Special Constabulary and a whole range
of other initiatives. It has been a huge amount of work. It would
take me longer than the time we have available this morning to
detail the full range of initiatives.
Q504 Chairman: It is a very large
body of work to tackle some of the problems, for example, highlighted
by the Lawrence Inquiry about institutional racism and to build
closer relationships with the communities. There is nothing in
the evidence we have yet seen from the figures which suggests
that there is any change, though, in the trends to the apparent
overrepresentation of young black people in the criminal justice
system. Is there a particular problem that we are not managing
to tackle effectively or is it that the changes you have highlighted
as the main police response have not yet had time to work with
the system and have a noticeable impact?
Chief Constable Fahy: I think
we would point to the fact that there has been an improvement
in the degree of confidence that ethnic minorities have in the
police service and the criminal justice system as a whole. We
think there has been a very significant improvement in the relationship
between the ethnic minority community and the police. Clearly
there are difficult areas and, in general, there is a difficult
relationship between young people and the police overall. We would
point to the fact that we have seen an increase in the number
of prosecutions for racially aggravated offences. We would point
to the fact that there are more black people and ethnic minority
people joining the police service. We think there is a whole range
of positive measures but you are right to point out that, in terms
of this particular issue about disproportionality, the figures
are not shifting. Clearly we feel there is a range of economic,
social and educational issues behind this—and I know your
Committee has heard a lot of evidence about that. Particularly
in relation to this issue about the disproportionality in stop
and search and the disproportionality in arrest rates, I think
it is fair to say that we are a bit closer to understanding what
some of the issues are but it is still a very complex subject.
Q505 Chairman: We will come back
to that but perhaps I could pick up on something you just said.
In the evidence to this Committee—and it has probably not
been quite as clear cut as this—we have had almost two contrasting
explanations as to what is going on. On the one hand, we have
had some witnesses who have very strongly emphasised the things
which are happening within black communities: family breakdown,
drugs, the negative cultural influences (in music and so on) and
poor success in schools. On the other hand, we perhaps have another
set of witnesses emphasising racial discrimination, racism, poverty
coming from exclusion and discrimination. Does ACPO have a sense
of which of those explanations is most plausible?
Chief Constable Fahy: I think
it is so complex, it is a mixture of all those factors. We are
not saying the attitude of our own officers is not still a problem
and one which we need to deal with, but even that is complex in
terms of the pressure officers are often under to take action
against particular crime problems in particular neighbourhoods.
All those factors you have highlighted do play into it but we
do think, overall, there has been too much concentration on the
stop and search and not enough concentration on some of those
wider issues. Clearly, almost a bigger problem is the entry point
and the disproportionality in the number of arrests. We have tried
to say in the submission that stop and search is one of those
avenues into arrest but there are a lot of other interactions
between suspected offenders and the public and the police which
also need to be taken into consideration.
Q506 Chairman: The next question,
which is my last opening question, I would like to put to each
of you in turn, if I may. Whilst some people have welcomed us
having an inquiry, other people have questioned why we are having
an inquiry on the issue of young black people in the criminal
justice system. In your view, are some of the experiences of young
black people sufficiently different and significant to justify
us having an inquiry that is focusing on young black people, as
opposed to us having, as we could have done, an inquiry on young
people and crime in general or perhaps young people from black
and ethnic minority groups? Are we right to say that there is
something sufficiently and significantly different about that
experience to justify the inquiry?
Chief Constable Fahy: I think
there are particular aspects about the level of disproportionality
which clearly is a danger of becoming a cycle, in terms of people
going through the system and then continually offending and finding
it difficult to get out of the system. There are particularly
worrying aspects about the involvement of young black people in
gun crime and particularly the fact that they are far more likely
to be victims of homicide. That said, I think we would say there
are a lot of other common factors between the experiences of young
black people and other ethnic minorities and in fact, lots of
other young people in disadvantaged communities. That particular
issue about alienation and disadvantage and how people climb out
of that is an issue that is affecting a lot of communities right
across the country at the moment and tends to be that section
of society with which the police force comes into contact most
often.
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Dick:
I agree with Peter. I welcome the inquiry, for a start. I think
there are some things which are specific and sufficiently different,
particularly in relation to history and the history in this country
of relationships, particularly with our service, looking at it
from our point of view, which merit that examination specifically,
as opposed to looking at, as you said, young people and the criminal
justice system in general. However, I do think all the evidence
suggests that there are also huge overlaps between young black
people and other people suffering from very similar kinds of disadvantages,
and much of what you will say about young black people in the
criminal justice system could also be applied to other young people
from a variety of different communities, but probably not all
of it.
Superintendent Logan: Again, I
echo my colleagues' positive endorsement of this inquiry. I think
it is critical to recognise the cultural sensitivities through
the years, in that we know that the biggest influences on young
people are their parents and their peers. If parental guidance
is not there—for all sorts of reasons that I am sure we
will go into—then that will influence the perceptions of
our young people. I think the significant thing that needs to
be acknowledged that is different from other groups in different
cultures is the self-destruction we are seeing in certain communities
of young people, who are actually seeing their youth affiliations
as more important than the norms and values of society, and the
self-loathing that comes with living in deprivation, in areas
of need and neglect and a lack of hope and expectation. I speak
from a personal perspective, in that I was brought up in that
urban setting and I was conscious of my ever-present parenting
to keep me away from certain peer groups that would influence
me into another lifestyle. I know how self-esteem is critical.
If you do not respect yourself, then you do not respect others.
It is quite clear that that self-loathing is correlated with a
certain amount of self-destruction. We in the black community
need to recognise that because a lot of it is within our setting.
As my mother used to say: "Who feels it, knows it."
Q507 Ms Buck: Some of the evidence
we have looked at seems to confirm, based on sentencing records,
that there is a disproportionate involvement of young black people
in particular patterns of crime, and some of that being crimes
of violence. I wonder whether that confirms your experience, first
of all, and, if it does, what your understanding would be of why
that is. Why is there what looks like a different pattern of criminal
activity amongst young black people than amongst other ethnic
groups and young white people?
Chief Constable Fahy: The evidence
is quite clear from the research that young black people tend
to be more involved in offences like street robberies, drugs and
sexual offences, and young white people tend to be more involved
in property crime and particular offences like burglary, and that
can explain some of the differences in sentencing rates and things
like that. The explanation for that, as you have already heard
in some of the evidence, is that there is a connection between
the low esteem that Leroy has talked about and some of the family
break-ups, with youngsters ending up on the street and tending
to be more involved in those street offences and then trying to
gain credibility in terms of the gang culture, with that becoming
a self-fulfilling prophecy. That is clearly some of the indication,
and then, when there is obviously more focus on things like street
crime and street robbery, that in itself leading to more focus
being on those particular issues, of stop and search as a tactic,
and that leading to more black people being brought to the criminal
justice system.
Q508 Ms Buck: Is the impression of
what you are saying that there is more kudos, more esteem attached
within that criminal sub-culture to drug activity or street robbery
than, say, property crime? If so, why? One can understand the
argument that being tough on the streets gives one a certain amount
of esteem in that context but why a particular type of crime?
Chief Constable Fahy: From the
submissions, I would agree that certainly for the people who have
not done so well in the education system and are struggling in
terms of their self-esteem and who are perhaps not getting support
from their families, then the idea of being part of a gang is
more attractive. Clearly when they see from people around them
some of the material benefits that can be gained from the drug
trade—in terms of access to clothes, mobile phones and all
those material goods—that can quickly appear to be very
attractive compared to a route perhaps through traditional education.
That is what starts attracting them to the edges of the gang culture.
We really know—and again it is in the evidence—that
anybody involved in that sort of culture, particularly involved
in drug trading on the street, is at great personal risk in terms
of violence and their chances of being a victim. I think there
is more of a route through there. It is very dangerous in this
sort of territory to stereotype, but we would possibly pick up
that a lot of the white working-class lads seem to tend to get
more involved in alcohol, and almost seek an escape route through
drinking vast amounts of alcohol and the pub culture, rather than
so much the street culture of gangs and the drug trade. But, as
I say, in this world it is very dangerous to stereotype around
some of this.
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Dick:
I want to reiterate the point about victimisation. I know you
have the data, but the level of victimisation is not as high but
the over-involvement of black victims in those offences and in
all violent offences and other offences is clear.
Q509 Ms Buck: What do you believe
we know about these disproportionate rates of victimisation? I
think you mentioned homicide as a particular factor, but it looks
like that is true of rape and other serious crimes as well. What
do we know about those variations in victimisation? We have heard
very compelling evidence from witnesses that the fear young people
can experience of being on the street is itself quite a significant
driver of some of this more violent activity.
Superintendent Logan: I can only
speak from a Hackney perspective and a certain amount of experience
I have had of boroughs in the Metropolitan Police. It is quite
clear that a lot of the youth affiliations do have a bearing on
the types of activities that they get up to, positive or negative.
If you are in a group of young people aspiring for significance
through the arts, culture, education, whatever it may be, you
will see a more positive one than if you have an affiliation where
you have inherited disadvantages, where you are living in a deprived
area. And I am not talking about deprivation in terms of the structures
around them, because we have estates in Hackney where they have
spent millions of pounds; so they have regenerated the buildings
but what has not come with it is the regeneration of the individuals.
A lot of what is picked up should be picked up at an earlier stage.
We are talking about housing; we are talking about support services;
we are talking in particular about youth services. Youth service
is an educational tool and of course that leads into school. If
your peers are not aspiring for significance then whoever speaks
the loudest has the biggest impact. In a lot of areas we have
seen that they are drawn into these affiliations. A lot of crime
has a correlation with the minimum wage. This is no excuse for
it, but a lot of people, because they underachieve at school,
have a lack of job prospects. They see credibility in the youth
affiliation. A lot of that is epitomised in the music and the
videos: "Get rich quick and die trying"—that sort
of heavy influence on vulnerable minds. Let me say that within
certain youth affiliations is a high degree of drug use, and alcohol
use to some extent, and then you will start to see what is the
easiest form of getting money—that minimum wage issue that
I spoke about. We have seen movement from a certain type of property
crime and now we are starting to see movement from street crime
to selling drugs. They are not just staying in boroughs like Hackney,
because we are being very robust and very clear how we deal with
that, but they are quite willing to go to other areas outside
London. So we are seeing that peer influence and those criminal
role models that label young people saying, "Listen, teachers
think you're unteachable, you're disruptive. The police think
you're criminals. You might as well just get on with it."
You cannot underestimate the influence of those criminal role
models. You need to offset those misplaced loyalties, those skewed
views, into getting positive role models in their place of existence,
to shatter a lot of their beliefs and values, to say, "You
don't need to get security significance in a youth affiliation
that is negative. You can get it in a positive setting, with role
models." You have to build the capacity. It is the capacity
building to have the resilience to crime and that peer pressure.
Q510 Ms Buck: There will be lots
more questions on those kinds of points, but, still on this issue
of victimisation, I suppose it is the vicious circle argument
that some of the reflection of serious crime against young black
people is itself a consequence of a disproportionate number of
young black people, for all the reasons you have outlined—being
in a vulnerable position, being on the street, being involved
in gang culture—therefore being at a higher risk of, say,
violent crime. Or are young black people themselves disproportionately
at risk of being victims, even regardless of those factors?
Chief Constable Fahy: I think
the figures show that for black people, overall, the chances of
being a victim of crime are about the same as for a white person.
It is really at what point you get into the circle. On the whole,
we would point to the fact that that circle starts a bit earlier
in terms of issues around education and the family situation,
which then leads them into the street culture, which again leads
them into contact with the police. I think, on the other hand,
you are right, they clearly then see, as we said in our submission
quoting Trevor Philips, that they are more likely to end up in
a prison cell than in a university lecture theatre. That in itself
lowers their self-esteem and lowers their aspirations and means
that, particularly when they are faced with a fork in the road,
they are perhaps more likely to head towards the street culture
than working hard in the education system. As I said earlier,
it is very complex. There are some issues which clearly are affecting
it further down the food chain, so to speak, but certainly that
disproportionality itself and, as Leroy said, then the criminal
role models, do create a vicious circle.
Superintendent Logan: Young black
men are four times more likely to be shot than their white counterparts.
For young black men under 20, the incidents have doubled over
the last four years.
Q511 Chairman: Do those high levels
of victimisation indicate that these victims are themselves involved
in crime and it is that that makes them vulnerable, or are we
talking about a classic distinction between the criminal and the
innocent victims?
Superintendent Logan: I would
say there is definitely a link between crime, but, unfortunately,
there are also these youth affiliations that are so tight that
if any person who looks like a stranger challenges them then it
may result in violence. So you do not necessarily have to be involved
in crime.
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Dick:
In London, if we look at homicides and shootings, 85% of our suspects—and
we have to be careful about "suspects" I know—are
described as black and 75% of our victims are. There is very limited
academic research but what there is has shown that the overlap
between offenders and victims is quite large and a lot of people
who are arrested have already been a victim of gun crime and vice
versa—not by any means everybody of course, but there is
a large overlap.
Q512 Mrs Cryer: Could you talk about
your sources of information regarding gun crimes and ethnic minority
young men. We cannot go into detail on this, I know, but does
it appear to you that the recent incidents in Manchester and London
are following on the path of what you would have regarded as being
the case before? Is it following that same flow?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Dick:
I know more about London than I do about elsewhere, but, if we
look at gun crime overall: UK-wide, and most certainly in London,
there is a huge overrepresentation of young black people, both
as suspects accused and, indeed, as victims. That is recorded
crime. If you look at homicides and shootings—which we think
we know most about because, by definition, they are the most serious:
hospitals, if someone comes in with a shooting injury, will tell
us, so the recorded figures probably match the actual figures
quite well—we are seeing, as I said, in London this massive
disproportionality. That is matched, when we talk to our human
sources of intelligence. When we talk to communities, in fact
they would probably say it is even more disproportionate than
we do. We know there is a lot of gun crime generally which is
not recorded and which we are not capturing, but at the high end
of the market, the worst offences, we think we have a good picture
from the recorded crimes. We are seeing a general reduction, nationally
and in London, in the age of offenders. When Trident, which is
the London initiative to combat gun crime in the black communities
was started, the people who killed people were generally in their
late twenties, in their thirties, some were even in their forties,
hardened criminals and older people. Now, as you may know, we
have had many who are teenagers and young teenagers charged with
gun crime in the last two years—homicide, sadly. So for
about three years we have been observing this reduction in age
and no real change in terms of the overrepresentation of black
people with gun crime—particularly in London, but also in
Manchester and in the West Midlands, which are the three big gun
crime forces.
Superintendent Logan: Again, this
is from a Hackney perspective. For 10-17 year olds, we are seeing
an increase in the use of gun-enabled crime, and a decrease for
18-25 year olds. When we say gun-enabled crime, it does not necessarily
mean that guns will be used or even seen; it might be if they
suggest "If you don't hand over your money I'll shoot you."
That would be registered. But picking up a point around under-reporting,
I think we need to understand that. When you speak to young people—as
recently as yesterday evening I was at a youth independent advisors
group and our young people are seeing that they can shape and
steer various strategies. When you speak to them and say, "Do
you report every single time someone might come up to you and
steal your belongings, your mobile phone or whatever?" and
they say, "To be quite honest, we need to weigh it up with
where we live, the proximity of the suspect, the influence they
may have and the value of the item: Is it worth my while?"
Unfortunately, on the extreme view there are certain youth affiliations
who have a lack of trust in the criminal justice system and so
they rely on their street justice, which is faster. Recognising
the influence of criminal wrongdoing, that person is saying, "Don't
worry, I'll deal with it." We have instances where positive,
law-abiding young people are in a dilemma, saying, "Do I
wait so long for the criminal justice system to have its way,"
if they are happy to wait, or "I have this young person saying
`I'll deal with it for you'." We need to build that capacity
in those young people to make sure they report these crimes in
the first instance.
Chief Constable Fahy: It is important
to highlight the fact that the number of homicides by shooting
is coming down. In all the areas that Cressida is talking about
there has been a lot of success in bringing that figure down.
A lot of initiatives are slowly, slowly working, but, clearly,
when we get the series like we have just had now it raises the
whole level of public concern. It is fair to say, that about six
months ago there was a similar level of concern about knife crime.
I think we need to look at the broader picture. Overall, we are
having a lot of success, but that general trend of people being
involved getting younger is worrying.
Q513 Mrs Cryer: Is the success of
Operation Trident one of the reasons for the age levels coming
down. We went to Feltham and met quite a number of very young
people. They looked incredibly young. Is that as a result of Operation
Trident inadvertently?
Chief Constable Fahy: In all the
big centres, particularly in Manchester and in the West Midlands,
in places like Liverpool and Nottingham which have a lot of coverage,
they have all had their operations but at the same time put a
huge amount of effort into local community initiatives and trying
to support those. That has absolutely not been about the police
alone by any means: all sorts of agencies have been involved in
that. The issue about the age is probably more a factor about
other trends out there in society rather than directly a relationship
with those operations.
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Dick:
I would tend to agree. I know a number of people have said that
Trident has arrested a lot of older people and younger people
are filling the vacuum. We still are proactively targeting a lot
of older people. There are still older people undoubtedly involved
in gang/gun crime, if I may put it that way, and many of them
are extremely dangerous and many of them are controlling younger
people. It is a theory. We do not know whether it is even a major
contributor to the age going down. Certainly we do have older
people controlling younger people but we also have a lot of other
things which tell us, as Peter said, that guns are becoming more
acceptable amongst a much wider range of young people. It may
be that they are more accessible to younger people than they were.
We are getting more casual use of the firearm by younger people
and I do not think that can be attributed to Trident's success
or Trident targeting more of the older people.
Q514 Mrs Cryer: Could you talk about
your sources of intelligence, about where these guns are coming
from and how they can be stopped? Apparently there has been a
change in the organisation getting hold of this intelligence and
since 2004 it has been taken over by SOCA. Is that appropriate?
Would it have been better left with the people who were doing
it before, the National Criminal Intelligence Service?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Dick:
Guns are coming from a wide variety of sources. I wish I could
give you a very simple answer. There is not a simple answer. I
would be happy to put that into our submission later.[1]
As I think you will be aware, many of the firearms that are used
are not in fact real made-for-purpose; many of them are conversions,
some of which have been imported quite recently, some of which
have been around for a long time and are now being converted so
that they can fire, having previously been non-firing, essentially.
Real made firearms are still, in general, quite expensive. The
ammunition is very difficult to get hold of. Sometimes it is homemade
ammunition but it is very difficult to get hold of, to buy it.
There are undoubtedly some coming through our borders. We know
this and we have had some great successes—the Revenue and
Customs, SOCA, various police services together—but there
are a lot of firearms in circulation. If you know who to ask,
you may be able to source one fairly quickly. I do not think,
as it were, you and I would be able to find a firearm fairly easily,
but if you know what you are doing and you know who to ask you
can get one, either for hire for a night, which might not be very
expensive, or, if you have a lot of money—many hundreds,
indeed thousands of pounds if you are looking for a very high
powered weapon -you can buy one. In some parts of some of our
cities, people will know who to ask, and they will ask and will
get to an armourer or a converter or someone who will hire it
out fairly quickly. In terms of intelligence, the National Crime
Intelligence Service has been subsumed into SOCA. I think SOCA
are now giving guns a high priority and doing the same work on
intelligence and, indeed, on assisting at the borders with international
agencies, which is very important, as NCIS used to do. Certainly
we want to support them in trying to do that.
Chief Constable Fahy: We think
there is room for more action at a European and a G8 level in
terms of trying to control the market. Clearly things like the
Internet and the fact that it is much easier to travel and to
move goods around Europe are clearly encouraging the market as
well. The issue about border controls and the ease with which
particularly replicas can be bought and then easily converted
is a matter of considerable concern to us.
Superintendent Logan: It is quite
clear that not just the availability of firearms but the cost
has significantly gone down. That is why younger people can hire
a firearm if they are so inclined. Their access to certain people
who can say, "Look, I can let you have a gun for a small
amount"—
Q515 Mrs Cryer: What is a small amount?
Superintendent Logan: £50
to £100 to buy certain calibre weapons. Of course years ago
it would have been hundreds of pounds for a similar sort of weapon.
Because of that, they have that disposable income, obviously,
to use. One of the things I think is really important at a local
level is recognising that it is still confined to the minority,
a minority of youth affiliations where there is this issue of
guns.
Q516 Mr Winnick: Chief Constable,
the Home Secretary has announced that as part of a wider plan
to deal with gun violence he is going to lay a parliamentary order
to ensure that 18-20 year olds are subject to a minimum sentence
of five years for carrying a gun. Presumably your organisation/chief
constables are very much in favour of that.
Chief Constable Fahy: We would
say that there needs to be a balance between enforcement and lots
of other initiatives—and deterrent is an important part
of that. Parliament had made it clear that a minimum sentence
would apply in these cases. Those sentencing are allowed to take
into account special considerations but we would say there seem
to be a lot of special considerations in a lot of cases. We think
the deterrent effect is important but also just as important is
what happens to those people when they come out of the system
at the other end. Clearly there are difficult public policy issues
about the balance between sentencing and rehabilitation and also
the degree to which public agencies can intervene earlier in the
cycle. As is well known, we can identify these people at a very
early stage. We would say that it is about the balance, but certainly
there does need to be a deterrent effect through the criminal
justice system and if Parliament has laid down that there should
be a minimum sentence, then we feel the courts should enforce
that.
Q517 Mr Winnick: How effective has
been the minimum sentence for 21 year olds onwards? That was introduced,
I believe, in 2003—not so long ago. Do you have any information
of how many people have been convicted as a result of that?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Dick:
I think we should say that the legislation in this country is
as strong as anywhere in the world probably already, and the extra
changes which the Government are now looking at are exactly that:
they are extra changes on the back of some very extensive controls
in terms of firearms legislation. The introduction of the five-year
mandatory sentence has led to fewer five-year mandatory sentences
being applied than we expected. I know the Home Office can give
you the exact figures but it is something like in 60% of cases
where a mandatory sentence could have been applied the judges
are in fact applying exceptional circumstances.
Q518 Mr Winnick: Perhaps I could
interrupt you, if you do not mind. It does not appear that what
Parliament agreed in 2003, a minimum sentence of five years—which
I think most of us would agree was necessary—has in any
way led to a reduction in gun crime.
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Dick:
Firstly, it is not being applied in all cases. In fact, it is
not being applied in about 60% of cases when I think it could
have been.
Q519 Chairman: Are the police frustrated
by this?
Deputy Assistant Commissioner Dick:
We have commented on it. I know it is being monitored and I know
the Home Office are talking to ministers about that. I am sure
in lots of individual cases there are very good reasons and the
legislation gives indications to judges of the kinds of things
they can look at. I can say that we expected a higher proportion
to result in it being applied. We also did not realise that there
was this loophole, if you like, of the 18-21 year olds. It is
slightly controversial, but we did expect it to apply to 18-21
year olds, and clearly it could not have and now it will have.
What deterrent effect has that had? Anecdotally, we think it has
had a deterrent effect. It is not going to have a huge one overnight,
perhaps, but there certainly is talk on the streets. There certainly
is talk from intelligence sources which says that people are aware
that you could get a five-year sentence just for having a gun
in a public place. But it does not seem, you are quite right,
to have had a massive impact on gun crime.
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