CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 181-iii

House of COMMONS

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

TAKEN BEFORE

Home Affairs Committee

 

 

Young Black People and the Criminal Justice System

 

 

Tuesday 6 February 2007

MR ROGER DRAKES aka DJ DODGE, MR BOB TYLER and MR ANDY PARFITT

MR MELVYN DAVIS and MR NEIL SOLO

Evidence heard in Public Questions 418 - 501

 

 

USE OF THE TRANSCRIPT

 

1. This is a corrected transcript of evidence taken in public and reported to the House. The transcript has been placed on the internet on the authority of the Committee, and copies have been made available by the Vote Office for the use of Members and others.

 

2. The transcript is an approved formal record of these proceedings. It will be printed in due course.

 

Oral Evidence

Taken before the Home Affairs Committee

on Tuesday 6 February 2007

Members present

Mr John Denham, in the Chair

Mr Richard Benyon

Ms Karen Buck

Mrs Ann Cryer

Mrs Janet Dean

Margaret Moran

Bob Russell

Martin Salter

Mr Gary Streeter

Mr David Winnick

________________

 

 

Witnesses: Mr Roger Drakes aka DJ Dodge, Hip Hop producer and DJ; Mr Bob Tyler Head of Compliance and Regulatory Affairs, VITV/Channel U; and Mr Andy Parfitt Controller, Radio 1 and 1Xtra, gave evidence.

Q418 Chairman: Good afternoon, and thank you very much for coming to this session which we have as part of our inquiry into young black people and crime to explore any possible relationship between that and rap and hip hop music. Perhaps I could ask each of you to introduce yourselves, for the record, to the Committee and then I will say a few things and then begin the questioning.

Mr Parfitt: My name is Andy Parfitt. I am the Controller of BBC Radio 1 and its sister station 1Xtra.

Mr Tyler: I am Bob Tyler. I am head of compliance at VITV/Channel U, a station which shows primarily hip hop and British urban videos.

Mr Drakes: I am Roger Drakes, club DJ and record producer who also speaks at schools and colleges about music and music-related subjects.

Q419 Chairman: In opening can I say that when we started doing our inquiry, which is looking primarily at possible reasons why there is an over-representation of young black people in the criminal justice system, we had not planned to have a discussion on contemporary urban music. But a significant number of the witnesses that we had from within the black community, and those working with young black people, pointed the finger at music as one of the issues we should be concerned about. Very much in the questions that we will be asking as a Committee this afternoon we will be reflecting to you things that have been put to us by other witnesses, particularly witnesses from within the black community and those working with black people in the community, rather than our own views. I wonder if I could start by asking you briefly a bit about the role in which rap, hip hop or contemporary urban, whatever is the right expression, plays in the lives of young black people in this country at the moment and if you think there is anything qualitatively different between this music and the relationship with this audience and all the other forms of contemporary music that young people have been used to over the years.

Mr Drakes: Basically, as a life-long fan of music and rap music, soul, jazz and all kinds of black music, I have to say yes; music does play a part in young people's lives. Like any teenager, when you are young music is a big deal to you no matter what the genre, but to say that it makes people go and act out certain things I would say definitely no. Music is so far from the root cause of what the problems are. Negative rap lyrics have been around for 20 years plus. I myself grew up listening to plenty of negative rap music, along with all the other genres of music, and it has not affected me in any way. Music is not the cause of the person I am.

Q420 Chairman: Do you think there is anything different about this music and this audience, not necessarily about crime but in the way people listen to it and what they listen to, and any other music that has been popular among other groups of young people in the past?

Mr Parfitt: It is important to say Radio 1 broadcasts every week to well over ten and a half million young people. Music, as Roger has just said, is an absolute passion for our audience. Overwhelmingly I think that the majority of people enjoy hip hop or black music genres in the same way as others enjoy the genres of alternative music or rock music. If you look at the composition of the audience listening to 1Xtra, you will find that a good proportion of the audience, even though it is a music station specialising in new rap music, is a wide audience; in other words, all young people enjoy these genres.

Q421 Chairman: Could you say something to the Committee so we understand the production of the music? We are all familiar with the traditional thing where you have a star signed to a record label which produces music and all the rest of it. We understand in this, as in other current forms of music, there is much more production by young people themselves and much more scope for independence. What is going on at the moment in terms of how the music is produced?

Mr Tyler: Channel U is different in so far as we are not like the other mainstream services such as MTV. We focus primarily on unsigned artists, predominantly UK, which makes it very different to other forms of music, although that is now changing in some respects with the internet and the way people are able to promote music. The unique thing about this type of music, and particularly with Channel U, is the young people can see you do not need a big orchestra to make a song, you do not need a recording studio that costs a lot of money to make a song, you do not need to have expensive video equipment to a make a video; it is very creative. Some of the videos we receive are quite astounding, from people who have not had experience before, both visually in terms of the video and very clever lyrics. It is accessible and it is admired by their peer groups.

Mr Drakes: To follow on from your question, as Bob said, today everyone is an artist. Every kid, even if they have great schooling, great education, wherever they live in the country, on the side they either rap or sing, even if only in front of the mirror, because at the time we are living in it is accessible to everyone. You have websites where you can put your music. You can get out there to everyone. In our community music is also a way of expressing thoughts and feelings. They do this by having their little studios, their little equipment set up, even if it is in their bedroom, and they write about the lives they live. That is basically it; most of them will never become professional and get recording deals and be stars. These are people who do not have that much else to engage them so therefore music is what engages them.

Mr Parfitt: It is part of the role of 1Xtra to engage with the artists who are making the music themselves on computer systems in their bedroom, who are burning CDs. It is part of the role of 1Xtra to engage with those communities to give a platform for their work on a national stage. It is also part of Radio 1's activities, in terms of a service called One Music, where we spend a lot of time reviewing demos, making sure big DJ talent can listen to them and pass on comments on line and so forth. It is part of the characteristic of music making in the UK, given the technology is now easily accessible and low in price, that it is accessible. The internet makes the distribution of music very easy and mobile phones are even used by our audience in terms of distribution. It is very, very different from the world of ten or 20 years ago.

Q422 Chairman: Some of the written evidence we have received suggests that at least some of the music is produced by groups of young people where you have not the traditional model of a group of young people getting together because they want to produce music but a large gang, a street gang in an area, and producing music would be part of what that gang did amongst the rest of its activities. Is that a real model of what happens or is it a more discrete activity in people's lives that they are going to produce?

Mr Drakes: I would not say it is anything to do with gangs or crews, or whatever they are called. The whole nature of your group of friends is you belong to something, just like belonging to a group like a chap who joins the Army, like a group of politicians who are in a group of friends. It is the same thing with young kids in our communities. They feel they need to belong to something. If they have failed on other levels of life, education being one, the nearest thing that gives them that community feeling and engages them on something they love is obviously music with a crew of people just like you who want to talk about the things that you talk about and also live the life you live. It is a natural thing.

Q423 Chairman: In that sense producing music might grow out of a fact a group of friends exist in an area rather than what might be the traditional model of advertising for three guitarists and a drummer.

Mr Drakes: Exactly, yes.

Q424 Chairman: This is music that seems, both at the level of international stars and at the level of the looser or newer type of music producers, to have a much stronger association with crime than many other types of music. No music has ever been free entirely of association with crime but there seems to be an unfortunate number of people who have been prominent in the rap music scene, both internationally and nationally, who have been involved in gun crime and other serious types of crime. Is there an explanation for that?

Mr Parfitt: My view is, and the people that I have listened to over the almost ten years that I have been the Controller of Radio 1 and the four years I have been the controller of 1Xtra, would be to say you have to look at black music and hip hop in the round. It is a very large canvass. The American stars yes, the UK scene that Bob talked about and in many countries around the world, hip hop is the choice for many disenfranchised communities. Although it is on the wane slightly in the UK as a first taste and choice of music, it is a huge and successful world genre. I think there is, as you say, an unfortunate association with crime perhaps we should broaden our view and say there are some artists who famously make large of their involvement in crime but there are many, many other artists, and much other music, that is not. You have to take a broad view.

Q425 Chairman: Compared with other musical genres which are very popular around the world with audiences of tens of hundreds of millions, if you look at individual artists who have been shot, people who have been jailed for having guns, people who have had to abandon their gigs because of gun crime, there is a disproportionate link between this type of music and some level of criminal activity even if it is a minority.

Mr Parfitt: I accept that there is a minority. My point is that hip hop is a very broad canvass.

Q426 Chairman: Can you give an explanation as to why that might be? Accepting your point that it is not everyone or most people but that strand, that tendency, is there. Is the association a complete coincidence, is it that the culture that is producing the music also has a high level of crime, or are there a number of possible explanations? Why should there be that apparently consistent trend of some groups being linked to crime or the music being linked to people involved in crime?

Mr Drakes: I believe the biggest artists out there being promoted are the ones who are the most negative and have a negative background. I go back to the art thing where I say they are talking about their particular lives. The nature of the society we live in, and the way media publishes and promotes artists, is they push harder the negative stuff. There are probably two positive rap CDs for every one negative one. I listen to a lot of music so I know this. Ultimately people are drawn to negativity, not just in music but look at the movies. I sat and watched Channel 4 and Channel 5 last night and there was nothing positive for four hours on any of the channels. I saw sex, guns, everything within that four hours, nothing at all positive, therefore I was dreading spending too much time talking about music and music's effect on young minds when the world we live in is creating the way the young minds are. It is not just a South London black thing at all; it is a whole UK thing.

Q427 Chairman: The point I was trying to make was actually the individuals involved in the music rather than the messages.

Mr Drakes: Rap artists do not have a responsibility to parent. Art is poetry. Art is like painting or any other art. They are not going to bring up other people's children.

Q428 Chairman: We will come on to that. The point I was trying to press was more there seemed to be an unusually high number of individuals involved in producing the music and performing the music who are caught up in crime compared with most other popular music. You cannot make a sweeping statement about music. There has been criminality in all forms of music but it seems to be a surprisingly high proportion. I am trying to get my finger on why that might be the case. We will come on to the context and message in a moment.

Mr Tyler: In this genre a lot of people are only writing about things they actually see from day to day and what they live amongst. If you do not live in a very good area, you do get in the lift and see needles, burnt out cars, and you do hear about friends that have had some violence or some trouble, you do see drug dealers and it is only natural that some people want to talk about it.

Chairman: You are still talking about the content. I am more talking about the lives of the individuals who are involved in music. We will come back to that.

Q429 Margaret Moran: You referred in your submission to the fact that the most rap records are actually bought by young, white males and that the music appeals to a broader spectrum. To give you a snippet of my misspent youth, having spent my misspent youth in the Co-op Hall in Catford listening to illegal imports of ska and Blue Beat you could say that was mainly a white audience and there was a link to violence there if you want to talk about skinheads. In the evidence we have heard from Shaun Bailey, he said he identifies with the artist, he says this is where we come from, the point you are making there. How far do you think some of the messages are specifically directed at that group and aimed to have a different impact on young black men in particular?

Mr Parfitt: From what I have learnt over the years in terms of listening, a group of artists will feed off one another or copy each other or aim particular messages against each other, show-off to each other. There is another context in that an artist wants to make a piece of music that is more widely acceptable. I think it is probably both. The artists that I have talked to and that I meet certainly want to find a platform for their music broader than their local community and broader than their group of friends and want to hear it broadcast and want to progress themselves musically in that scene.

Mr Drakes: You might find it hard to believe but most of these artists actually believe they are going to have a life-long career from the records they are making. They believe that this music is going to turn into a job, buy them a house and feed their family, et cetera, and that is why they do it. That is why they spend what little money they have, or get from wherever, to buy equipment. That is no different to a young gentleman going to college and studying as hard as he can to get his qualifications in order to get the same thing. It is almost like they have found one way does not work, what they see in front of them they believe is not going to work, throughout the years growing up and watching their parents they do not believe that way will work. They have almost dug their own tunnel, a way that they believe will work. They all think they are going to be stars and live from the music.

Mr Parfitt: To add to that, some of the very best groups, with the support of radio stations like 1Xtra, for example Dizzee Rascal who won the Mercury music prize some few years, break through and connect their music and their stories to a much wider audience.

Mr Drakes: If you remember So Solid Crew had a number one hit, everyone remembers that. That almost was the beginning and, believe it or not, even though they were negative and had such bad press they inspired because they showed all the little ten year olds coming up watching the TV that this is a way you can make it. This was a way to get out of the council estate, away from the needles and have a life. Does that make sense?

Margaret Moran: Yes, and get into trouble with the law.

Q430 Chairman: One of their members ended up in prison for possessing firearms.

Mr Drakes: I know but it is hope; it is financial hope. Obviously they mess up along the line because it is like trying to take the ghetto out of the person once they have been elevated to that level.

Q431 Margaret Moran: You have made the argument, in a sense, that youngsters see that but they also see the gun crime element of that.

Mr Drakes: I am talking about the actual music side. So Solid were not on TV with guns.

Q432 Margaret Moran: Not in their performance but elsewhere. Obviously a lot of the content of what we are discussing here is negative and is sometimes criticised from within the black community itself. I seem to remember Ms Dynamite protested, when I was Chair of the All-Party Group on Domestic Violence, against some of the lyrics, "slap the bitch" and all of that kind of thing. I am looking at Bob particularly here, on your channel I know you have viewer feedback which seems to be feeding back that some of these more violent videos and music are what is preferred. How much would it affect your ratings if you were to say "No, we are not having any of that. We think it is detrimental and not positive enough."

Mr Tyler: That is not quite the case. Dizzee Rascal was an artist that Channel U first broke and he won the Mercury prize in 2004. What we do at Channel U is we respond. We have to comply with the Ofcom codes which are quite clear. A lot of the codes refer to protecting people under 16. 20% of our viewers are under 16 and 30% are between 16 and 18. There are a lot of young people watching. We must not show things which show the effects of crime or things like that.

Q433 Margaret Moran: You are subject to regulation like everybody else. What I am asking is there is demand clearly for this kind of violent image and lyric and you are responding to that.

Mr Tyler: No, we do not respond to it.

Mr Parfitt: I think there is a demand, in my experience, for exciting UK hip hop or the best of American hip hop, and a proportion of it has lyrics which some people find negative. Again I would just urge that we take a broader view. A lot of hip hop is just purely boy meets girl pop music and some of it is more social observation. There is a panoply of material out there which young audiences find exciting and want to engage with. We do all have very clear regulatory obligations. The BBC guidelines are extremely clear and Radio 1 and 1Xtra are careful to adhere to what those guidelines say and in delivery of them. We are extremely careful. Generally I think the appetite is for exciting music. There is a very broad panoply.

Q434 Margaret Moran: But music which advocates violence and rape of women.

Mr Parfitt: It has already been said that young musicians write music about what they see, and sometimes when they write about their own personal situations some of the content is some of the harsher realities of life. There are certain artists, one that springs to my mind a young guy called Plan B, Ben Drew. He writes a very searing and good piece of social observation as well as the other kind of music which is a little bit more aggressive. It is a broader brush I think.

Mr Tyler: If I go back to the point again, the videos are voted for. Once they have passed the criteria for being on the Channel, and we reject a big number of videos because of that reason, it is a fair process that every video is voted for. The answer to the question is every week we have a Channel U Top Ten which is compiled by actual votes and these videos do not appear in the Channel U Top Ten.

Q435 Margaret Moran: You are saying there is demand out there for very violent realistic videos and music but you are censoring some of them.

Mr Tyler: I would not use the word censor. We have standards and we have to apply the broadcasting codes.

Q436 Mrs Cryer: I am going over the same ground that Margaret touched on. Could you say what proportion of the material you actually play does portray in some way criminal behaviour and do you think it could just encourage violent behaviour?

Mr Tyler: I noticed that during 2006 the amount of videos submitted of a violent nature, whether it was visually or within lyrics, is decreasing. We have had more and more feedback with the artists during 2006 and obviously they realise now the young people want to get the videos played at all times of the day. Often we have to put videos on after the watershed and it is not going to get so many plays overnight. People do not want to see their video at 3.00 am. Young people call us up and say "Why are you not playing my video in the day?" and we tell them why. They are actually responding to this, and those types of videos are now decreasing and more daytime suitable videos are being submitted. People are getting the message. They want to continue to be on television and if they have to change their video to a style to be on in the daytime, they will make those changes.

Mr Parfitt: For Radio 1 around about 9% of the music output would be classed as hip hop music, on 1Xtra it is around 30%. We have very clear delineation between what you can hear on daytime radio and what you can hear in the evening because the expectations of the audience are very different. The majority of what is broadcast in the daytime, none of that music would depict any criminal behaviour. The editorial process would ensure that radio edits are played. For those records that are played in specialist shows, for example Tim Westwood or Ras Kwame, they are subject to pretty strict editorial guidelines, usually radio edits are played. If there is strong language and imagery, and the proportion is tiny they are played but only ever on proper justifiable editorial grounds. Even then, we are obliged, and are happy, to give a warning to listeners there is something they might hear. If they want to tune away from strong language or content, we would make that absolutely clear to them.

Mr Drakes: To add to what Andy said about the broader picture, if we are going to talk about negativity within music that is affecting a certain community, then we cannot do that and ignore society, movies, video games and all the other negative aspects of our community. Music has no comparison to Hollywood. The most negative movies have million pound advertising campaigns. The kids, if they are vulnerable, are more influenced by a big screen picture of blood splattering everywhere and guns. To talk about music for even this amount of time is ignoring the broader picture.

Q437 Mrs Cryer: In a way you are acting like the film censor for the films we see.

Mr Drakes: Exactly.

Q438 Mrs Cryer: Just recently I have seen The Last King of Scotland and Casino Royale both of which were horrifically violent. I would not want my grandchildren to see them but I am advised as to what would be suitable for them. Do you see your role as being that of editorial censors? How much of the material that is forwarded to you do you actually throw out because you feel it would be too violent for your audience?

Mr Parfitt: That is quite hard for me to say. What I would say is a station like Radio 1 will receive hundreds and hundreds of individual pieces of music every week and similar would be true of 1Xtra. The job of the production teams and the music teams is to make some choices about what they think takes the genre on and what is high quality music. On the question of censorship, we are very careful not to ban a record. Where our editorial policies stem from is very much in line with the audience's own expectations. Whether you are 16 and a real fan of heavy metal or a real fan of hip hop, you do not want to be surprised at breakfast, when listening to the radio with your family, with particularly strong content. Young people do not want that and parents do not want that. The expectations of audiences are critical in driving those policies, not so much top down although we are clearly taking an editorial perspective on some material. In the evening when specialist audiences have a very, very clear expectation about what that genre means, what that brings, the content a particular DJ brings, then we think the DJ can take people further with the material that is a bit broader mix. Some of it people will not like but the context of the show, the expectations and the warnings we give I think pretty much are successful. In the time that I have been Controller there has not been an upheld complaint by the Broadcasting Standards Council nor Ofcom about any of the rap hip hop content in the stations that I lead.

Q439 Mrs Cryer: I am trying to get at how much of the material that is sent you actually discard because you think it is of too a violent nature. It sounds as if it is related to the time of day to a certain extent.

Mr Drakes: Margaret has commented on rape advocating, or something like that. Those kinds of records I have never heard of. If any DJ, or Andy, had anything like that it would not even see the light of the day and the artist would never get played. Obviously you get records which are a little more real, a little more harsh on the ear as far as what they are saying. I personally do not censor my music. It is like reading a horror story or reading a book about something; it is not nice but you read it, you learn something about someone else's life and hopefully it will help you to help them maybe. Generally I do not like censorship, as such, which is what you are getting towards.

Q440 Mrs Cryer: I am not suggesting it is a bad thing. I just ask how you use it.

Mr Drakes: I do not really.

Chairman: It might help if we move to the next questions and look at some of the lyrics and the issues behind some of the lyrics.

Q441 Mr Winnick: Mr Drakes, when you started to give evidence you said that the sort of music we are talking about should not be blamed for criminality and I assume that is the view of the two other witnesses. However, particularly for Mr Drakes but I will come on to Mr Parfitt, do you believe that there is some sort of responsibility to send the message out of a more positive nature, in other words trying to encourage young people, and certainly black people, to avoid drugs and gun violence?

Mr Drakes: Ultimately I believe that and that is why I am here speaking. I want to see a change, I want to see the violence stop. What I am saying is, as a defender of music, we are focusing far too much on one aspect of what makes these people do what they do. We are here to have some kind of answer to the problems when we leave this room and by focusing on music, and just music alone for now, we are a million miles away from where the point is.

Q442 Mr Winnick: No-one is suggesting for one moment that criminality, which is the subject of this inquiry, the involvement of black youths in the criminal justice system, all rises from this sort of music. No-one is suggesting that. It is a possible aspect we are exploring. If, in your mind, you come to the conclusion that the reason we believe such violence takes place is simply because of the music, that is not our view, it cannot be our view, and is not the view of any sensible person. It may be, at most, a minor aspect. That is why we have asked you to give evidence.

Mr Drakes: That question was answered by me at the very beginning. I said yes, music does affect people's behavioural patterns whether you are a teenager and are influenced by an artist who has a massive poster on the street and is making millions of pounds.

Chairman: We did not plan to have this session when we set out this inquiry. We have been looking at lots of other issues of criminality. It is because some of the black witnesses who came in front of this Committee said there is an issue about the music that we are here this afternoon.

Q443 Mr Winnick: Mr Parfitt, it may be argued that in the job you have at Radio 1, a subsidised organisation, that you have a greater responsibility on these matters. Putting the same question as I did to Mr Drakes, do you think you have any responsibility on Radio 1 to try and encourage young people, be they black or white, against criminality and gun violence?

Mr Parfitt: I have got a lot to say on this. For probably 25 years Radio 1 has recognised that it has another role other than that of reflecting and promoting the best new music. Radio 1 has, as you probably know, a group of young journalists who make regular programmes, newsbeat programmes. 1Xtra similarly, from its inception, has a very clear quota of ensuring that it makes bespoke news programmes for its young audience. What that means in practice is young ethnic minority journalists focusing on an agenda which is relevant to their listeners can get further in explaining some of the issues around criminality, around unwanted pregnancies, and so on, than many of the conventional mainstream news programmes. There is a regular news service on 1Xtra that deals with all of these issues on a regular basis. There are documentary teams who make programmes around gun crime. When the knife amnesty was a current theme 18 months ago Radio 1 made a documentary reflecting that called Knives Out. During the Paris riots when hip hop again was charged by French politicians as being responsible for the outbreak of violence in the Paris suburbs, we sent some reporters over there to investigate that story and find out more. When it comes to music making, there are some fantastic examples of where divides can be crossed through music. I am thinking of one particular example where the BBC concert orchestra and a group of young MCs from Hackney got together and did a programme on Radio 3 and 1Xtra called Urban Classics. It was the most successful and clear, to my mind, example how engagement just through music can do a power of good. That was a rather long answer to your question but I emphatically agree and I would not be doing the job I do if we were not doing something of value for these audiences and building a public value.

Mr Winnick: We have examples of some of these lyrics. Due to the sensitivity of my colleagues - I am more hardened in these matters - I hesitate to quote some of them.

Martin Salter: You sing along David. That is why these people have turned up.

Q444 Mr Winnick: Can I just, if I may, quote one which was broadcast apparently on the 21 March on Radio 1, if I did not hear it myself: "Murder, murder, mu-murder, murder, mu-murder these streets. Murder, murder, mu-murder, murder, mu-murder these streets (I'm 'bout to). Murder, murder, mu-murder, murder, mu-murder these streets." I am not suggesting, Mr Parfitt, that someone hearing that will go out and murder, but considering what you have just said do you not think, recognising the amount of gun violence and murders, the taking of lives and what is sometimes described, not by me but by the police, as black-on-black crime, perhaps on reflection it is not the best message?

Mr Parfitt: From your quote I cannot place the tune.

Mr Tyler: They might be saying "There is so much murder, let's get out of it" or something.

Mr Parfitt: The serious point is whether that was an expression saying that I am going to do something well, or slang, I do not know. I am not familiar with where the particular tune came from. There are some uncomfortable lyrics for some people made by some perfectly seriously minded young people reflecting the lives they see around them which may contain material that, out of context, makes some people feel uncomfortable or cause offence.

Q445 Mr Winnick: Would it cause you to feel uncomfortable?

Mr Parfitt: On that particular example I do not know when it was broadcast.

Q446 Mr Winnick: 25 March last year, 9.00 pm. Everybody else is in bed?

Mr Parfitt: If it was 9.00 pm that would constitute, in my mind, the heart of the evening schedule which is a specialist output. What we know from our audience is they would understand entirely the expectations of the shows they are listening to. If that particular track went on to have some very strong language or some graphic description, there would have been a warning for it. I do not know, from the description, whether it did or not.

Q447 Mr Winnick: On graphic examples of sexuality, which I am not going to put, 46 or 47 years ago there was a case involving Lady Chatterley's Lover. Fortunately, as far as I am concerned, the case was won by the publishers. Is it part of your case that just as there was a great deal of fuss at the time about Lawrence's novel, which no-one would suggest for one moment should be banned, similarly now there is the fuss about what we are discussing? Would that be part of your defence?

Mr Parfitt: I certainly bring that argument into play that very often new and emerging music genres or youth movements often alienate or spook out older generations. Operating on a day-by-day basis and making editorial decisions about what music to include in a particular show is part of my role. The BBC remit, as far as Radio 1 is concerned, is very clear. It says that we have a duty to reflect, as widely as we possibly can, the youth music genres from the UK and around the world. It is part of our remit to showcase and to find the best of all those genres, including hip hop or UK Grime and so on. When we are doing that we have a duty to protect vulnerable listeners. In the same way we know when children are viewing Channel U, we also know when the under 16s are listening to Radio 1 and we take care with our schedule. In the example you have just given, I would probably guess the proportion of under 16s listening at that time would be 5% or 10%. If there was graphic material to follow or strong language there would have been a warning. The audience listening to that programme would have an expectation what the genre was all about.

Q448 Mr Winnick: I was going to quote, Mr Tyler, something from Channel U but I will not because I would like to ask your comments about Neil Fraser who runs music of this kind. He says that producers should share some of the guilt every time a black youth dies by the gun in the UK. In other words, those of you who allow this music to be played, Mr Fraser takes the view, you should share some of the responsibility for the criminality which occurs.

Mr Tyler: We are not producers of the music; we are only the broadcaster.

Q449 Mr Winnick: Do you accept any responsibility as a broadcaster?

Mr Tyler: We cannot accept responsibility for things that happen that may or may not be a result of music being played. At Channel U we make every effort we can to ensure we do not incite violence and crime.

Q450 Mr Winnick: Do you think you have any responsibility?

Mr Tyler: We have a responsibility to protect young and vulnerable people and I believe we are doing that very well with the small team of young people that we have.

Mr Drakes: I could answer the bit about the making of the music. As a producer I personally choose not to work with artists who have terrible, violent, negative, sexist, murderous lyrics but I am one producer out of thousands. As I said before, everyone is an artist, everyone is a producer. If we are talking about the average 17 year old producer who has access to making music and does not have a very good education, there is no way of policing what kind of music he is going to make. I do not make music from a council estate; I make music from where I live. I am not in the middle of the problem.

Mr Tyler: One of the things we are seeing in terms of the content of the video in respect of violence is we are getting more videos and more songs that say "I used to be into this, I used to do drugs, I used to hang around in gangs, but now I am into my music." There are lots of these aspirations. These are positive messages these young people are saying, "Do not think you can get your big car and this bling culture by going around stealing or selling drugs or doing whatever you want. Be like me and be a rap star because we are going to be big." Everybody thinks they are, and some are. Some of these people are grasping on to this and they are role models; they are good examples. Some of these songs are turning their back on that scene. They do not want to know that scene. A common expression is "I do not do those bars any more", which refers to selling drugs, "I will do my song bars." They are making these analogies with the bad life and the good life of being a performer.

Q451 Mr Winnick: To the extent that occurs, that is very encouraging.

Mr Drakes: You could pick a negative line from most songs not jus rap songs. You have to listen to the whole song and the context in which it was written and find out the person who wrote it and why they wrote it. That line you quoted about murder, I do not know what context the song was written. He could have been feeling a certain way or witnessed a certain thing that made him write it.

Q452 Ms Buck: Before you came in we were discussing the lyrics of Tom Jones' song Delilah, which you may remember involves him stabbing his adulterous lover to death. As far as I know there was not a spate of copycat Tom Jones murders. Going back to the issue that worries me, and it goes back to your answer a little bit earlier, there is a body of academic research which clearly confirms the risk of desensitisation of young people when they are exposed to, and I take your point it is not music alone but can be the whole culture, pornographic and horror slash movies, all of that culture. Music is an element of that. If young people are constantly exposed to that level of very aggressive, very materialistic, very sexist material it does not make them go out and commit a crime any more than people who listened to Tom Jones went out and got a knife but that cumulative effect can be important and it is particularly important for young teens. In your evidence and in your research, and it is quite right that young people have a strong sense of their own ability to make those judgments, do 12 and 13 year olds have that? Is it not absolutely the case that 12 and 13 year olds will be listening to that music at nine o'clock at night?

Mr Parfitt: One of my other roles for the BBC is to look at the overall content provision for 12 to 15 year olds. I have done a pretty extensive six months of research in this area. I would say it is, first of all, very hard to say that there is a typical 12 or 13 year old. Some 12 or 13 year olds exhibit the maturity and tendencies of 16 or 17 year olds so it is hard to say. The position I come from is that, in my experience, music and music making is a power of good, therefore a focus for some young people's energy and activity. Particularly when we are talking about, by and large, disenfranchised young people, it is a good thing. It is creative and can lead to a micro business of selling CDs and so on. There is a lot of good there. If the services like 1Xtra can access that, and seem to give a conduit to a much broader picture, a UK-wide picture, that tends to be a good thing. You have to balance those two things. There may be some exposure to some negative imagery and lyrics but on Radio 1 and 1Xtra we manage that very carefully and very sensitively. Radio 1 and 1Xtra, however powerful they are, are only part of a much broader picture. For example, there is a burgeoning pirate radio scene in virtually all the major conurbations.

Mr Drakes: Just to add to what Andy said, if we actually saw the way some one of these crews and youngsters organise the business aspects of their music, you would see that they are stockbrokers, they are bankers, they are entrepreneurs, they have CDs, they go to manufacturing plants, they press it, record it and make it. Walk down Oxford or Regent Street right now and to people like myself they will offer to sell you one. That is a salesmen right there. Those legitimate avenues of doing those jobs were closed when they were 14 or 15 in the education system. They have come out the other end and now they are doing it their way.

Q453 Ms Buck: All of that is true. There is no question that music, in that broader context of the creative arts, is one of the best things that can happen to young people and gives all kinds of outlets but I am not sure that gets people off the hook, and I do not mean just Radio 1. The constant exposure to aggressive, sexist music - I am not saying you are playing it in your programme - do you think there is a risk that constant exposure can be part of a desensitising of young people to the implications of that?

Mr Drakes: Their lives are constantly exposed to those same risks therefore they are desensitised before they even put the CD in the player.

Q454 Chairman: Another young man has tragically lost his life in Streatham. You would accept that whether they are broadcast or not there are a lot of lyrics around that the way to respond to violence is violence. Even if it does stem from people lives, is there a problem in promoting the view that a rational response to the murder of a young man in Streatham is to kill another young man? Over the last ten years we have seen the escalation of these deaths. Surely the music is not neutral in that; it is not just talking about what is going on.

Mr Drakes: At no point have I denied the music's effect. Saturday night was an extreme example but Saturday night in London was no different to Saturday night in Southampton where a chav got murdered for nothing. Anywhere you have disenfranchised youths running around the streets with nothing to do, no money, you will have these same problems. It happens in black communities in black areas, it happens in white communities in Grimsby or Hull. I have been around the country so I know. Therefore, to point the finger at just one thing, like I said before, music is a small thing compared to Hollywood, video games, the internet.

Q455 Ms Buck: Although it is proportionally, you are all arguing against that contention. What you are saying is how important music is to the expression and identity of young urban kids. I am not sure you can have both arguments.

Mr Drakes: What we are trying to say is music has created an infrastructure for them to give hope to be somebody. It engages them on a daily level. Right now in studios all across the UK there are young people with tape machines and digital machines trying to make something of their lives. If you open up other avenues for them to make something of their lives, more of them will come away from music and start doing other things. They will become film people and doctors and lawyers, all these other avenues. As I said, because of our failings as adults within education, first and foremost, most of them, by the time they get to 12 or 13, cannot do anything else.

Q456 Ms Buck: Young people could have that passion and opportunity to explore themselves through music without, at the same time, having such a high proportion of the music they are exposed to being aggressive.

Mr Drakes: For example, Will Smith raps. He is a famous actor and he raps. You love Will Smith. When he raps he does not swear, he says he does not swear; he writes about positivity, love and flowers. That is his life and that is how he grew up. Even before he became famous he is from a really residential area of Philadelphia, Mum and Dad at home, a dog, et cetera. 50 Cent, who is also a famous rapper as well, his mother was murdered when he was eight and his father he never knew. What do you expect from those two individuals as far as the dialogue of their lives? What do you expect them to talk about? Will Smith does what Will Smith does. We are not even mentioning him. He sold millions of records and is on our big screens every day as a positive role model but we are not talking about him, are we?

Mr Parfitt: I have something to add on this point. As a broadcaster, as opposed to just a music stream, the role model of the DJs, the speech content that I have described earlier, do come together to make a cumulative and very strong powerful service with a very positive message, I hope, to all young audiences. Part of that mix has to be the credibility of actually reflecting the broadest range of music.

Mr Tyler: A lot of it is about role models. I think some of the young people need more and better role models.

Q457 Ms Buck: One of the other concerns is the extent to which there has been some violence associated with clubs and gigs. I wonder whether you would argue that is inevitable where you have the urban scene concentrated in the clubs or whether there is something going on.

Mr Drakes: It is nothing to do with the actual venue. That is where people congregate and if there are arguments between individuals you are going to find it where people congregate. Most of the clubs are closed now. There are not many clubs any more. I have been DJ-ing a long time and five years ago there were urban clubs everywhere across the UK. Most clubs now, because of the way the community has gone, have actually closed down. I am fine with that. I do not want to see anyone get hurt. Someone got murdered in a club I was playing in before on the South coast in Bournemouth. I am glad they have shut even though it has affected my work.

Mr Parfitt: There is something else here about the role of the BBC. We have the live events programme, both Radio 1 and 1Xtra, and we have never so far had any incident at those club events. The care and attention to health and safety, security, and so on is something that we can bring because enjoying music together is a pretty important part.

Chairman: I will move on because we have another set of witnesses. There will be some more questions your way I am sure.

Q458 Mr Benyon: To a degree you two have lost a proportion of the control that your predecessors had over content. I can remember when Radio 1 tried to ban Relax by Frankie Goes to Hollywood. It was impossible and a ridiculous thing to do and boosted sales of that particular track enormously. Now, as Roger was saying, it is much more anarchic and that is part of the attraction to young people. There are so many more different ways of producing music that the actual control you have over the output is less now. 20 years ago Radio 1 and a few other channels were the sole access point young people had for music.

Mr Tyler: It is more fragmented.

Mr Parfitt: If you are 16 years old you have never known life without a fast internet connection in school and the penetration of broadband in homes. The younger end of the demographic, if you have young children or teenagers in your household you are more likely to be connected up. That is why Radio 1 and 1Xtra have focused far more on digital provision because that is where particularly the younger end of the market are going for their media. The method of distribution, also MySpace and Bebo and Bluetooth on mobile phones, is in the hands of the audience. It is a fact.

Mr Tyler: A few videos are often rejected straight away but many are sent back for editing to take out some images and to edit the lyrics, but if you want to be a hip hop artist today you have to have a web page, you have to be on MySpace, and there is nothing to stop those artists putting the unedited version on the internet. I have looked at some of these and they have in excess of 50,000 hits in a month, and that is the unedited version, the full blown version. In media terms, that is competing with us. In the roundness of things, that is another area that needs addressing because people can access these things through the internet and you can download from all of these sites.

Q459 Mr Benyon: In answering that question I do not want to let you off the hook. You are governed by the Broadcasting Code which we have already discussed and I quote from it: "Programmes must not include material ... which condones or glamorises violent, dangerous or seriously antisocial behaviour and is likely to encourage others to copy such behaviour." This is the point I wanted to come on to. How do you interpret that in terms of how you decide whether or not a song or a video is glamorising or condoning violence?

Mr Tyler: Violence or the after effects of violence. We do practice that all the time. We do not censor - I do not like the word censor - but we have a process that filters video submissions. We look at them in technical terms, overall appearance, and a few of them have to be looked at for compliance. We have sent back videos to be edited because it has shown play fighting in the street which resulted in a young man being kicked on the floor. It was only part of the fun of the video. The video was not a song about violence; it was just part of the imagery. We sent it back to be edited and they blurred out that scene from the video and they resubmitted it and we were able to play it.

Q460 Mr Benyon: You censored it?

Mr Tyler: Filtered it.

Q461 Mr Benyon: Roger was talking earlier about 50 Cent. There surely is a difference between talking about the miserable upbringing he had and all those experiences and that being behind his creativity, and that is entirely legitimate and it would be terrible to lose that, people have been doing it down the years - Bruce Springsteen - but where the line stops is where it goes to glorifying that. As a producer you have to decide where that line is.

Mr Drakes: I believe that 50 Cent's glorification of his life and his riches is no different from MTV Cribs. Has anyone seen that?

Q462 Mr Benyon: Yes, my children live on it, and Pimp my Ride.

Mr Drakes: We live in a society where if you do not have that you are not doing the damned thing, as it were, and you are seen as a bit of a nobody. If you have not got a Ferrari in the drive, it is pumped down our throats every day in movies more so than music. That in itself has as much effect on young people's minds as the average record of a gangsta rapper with a big chain. It is all relevant to the way we live, wouldn't you say?

Q463 Mr Benyon: I am still not sure I have got a clear indication of where talking about one's background and about problems that are all around you are being ----

Mr Drakes: Let me say it another way.

Mr Tyler: This is about people getting respect as well. In your neighbourhood or wherever, if you say, "I've got a song on pirate radio. I've got a video on Channel U", that is cool.

Mr Drakes: Like I said, it is almost like you get respect for being a prolific MP, no doubt.

Q464 Mr Benyon: Prolific!

Mr Drakes: Rappers want the same respect. They want their friends and peers around them to say, "That was good, you're the man", and they get that from music, by putting down a dog verse, as it were. Do you see what I mean? 50 Cent was basically poor, broke and hungry for 25 years, he became very rich in two years, so what do you expect him to talk about? He is going to brag, "Hey, I just won the lottery". That is how he lives, that is how his life is, because he spent 25 years getting shot at, having to do whatever he did, the obvious stuff. He has only been famous for a couple of years. Let us always bear in mind that 50 Cent or any of his crew do not market, promote or push his product. If he made 20 million out of record sales imagine what Universal Music, who is nothing to do with the hood, as it were, would make out of pimping his product. We are missing out on so many things here, aren't we? We are talking about Channel U and a few little £400 videos that are made in Hackney, that is such a small thing in the big picture.

Q465 Mrs Dean: Before I go on to my main question, Andy mentioned warnings and putting on a warning before some record came on. What impact do you think that has because in my opinion it probably means that the young person would watch and listen to it even more?

Mr Parfitt: That is always a danger. We try to do it in a style that is in keeping with the programme. I have to say to the Committee that the most referrals that I get in terms of strong language are often not hip hop at all, it is from heavy metal rock, at the moment that seems to be where producers are referring up to me where a decision needs to be taken. That said, we would try to give the warning in a way that does not undermine the warning, if you know what I mean. We would have star voices give the warning in a straightforward and humorous way rather than a finger-wagging way. We would ask the DJ to play it straight, to say, "Look, this is a record I want to play, I think it is good, it has got some strong language in it". The late John Peel was probably one of the ones who found giving the warnings more tricky than others because he believed that it was his programme and the expectations of the audience were that they knew what John would provide in terms of music so he did not need to give a warning. Nonetheless, he did give the warnings, and we do give the warnings, but we try to do it in a way that is in keeping with the style of the programme and the style of the station.

Q466 Mrs Dean: Can we move on to solutions. To what extent do you believe there is a need for some greater leadership from either the regulator or from government about the types of images and lyrics which should or should not be broadcast? I suppose this is wider than just music. How feasible is any of that regulation when you have got the internet disseminating music?

Mr Parfitt: I would say it illustrates how important it is that stations like Radio 1 and 1Xtra remain relevant and are impacting generally with young audiences in the UK. I think that the remit of those organisations is to take part in outreach activity with young musicians in the community, to put on live events in areas of the country where quality live events do not usually get staged, and it is important that we continue with our news services and interweave them in an intelligent way which engages with the young audience. We have got to keep on tackling the issues but tackling them in a credible way with a tone of voice, with a group of young producers and young members of staff. I am not a policy maker outside the BBC but I see that as a pretty central part of the role of both Radio 1 and 1Xtra.

Q467 Mrs Dean: Could the regulator or the government do any more?

Mr Parfitt: As I say, I am not a policy maker. I understand the role of the BBC in all of this which is to build public value with all audiences, but including young audiences, particularly all young audiences including those from ethnic minority, which is one of the reasons why a station like 1Xtra exists. We are funded to prosecute those values, if you like, to carry on doing that work.

Mr Tyler: I think on the subject of regulation we had a new regulator in 2003 whose main remit was a light touch with broadcasters and they measure outputs according to their codes. I am not sure we could persuade Ofcom to rewrite the codes to that extent. If you were to, you would drive things underground and the internet would thrive even more with this type of material and perhaps there would be another resurgence of pirate radio. Every now and again it seems to get cut down and comes back again. In government terms, I think it is to do with addressing the role models of the young people and trying to break the cycle and find out more about why young people think it is necessary to write and perform such lyrics.

Q468 Mrs Dean: Roger, do you think the Government could do any more? You raised the issue about films.

Mr Drakes: This whole discussion is headed down a censorship road and it is almost asking for trouble if anything because, as me and Bob both pointed out, this is a great opportunity, an avenue for these kids to engage themselves. If it was censored or cut off from them in any way they would just be on the street corner waiting for something to happen, which is what you do not want. Secondly, we are in an internet age where everyone can get everything via the internet, anything you want to see you can see it. By stopping it being on an FM radio is not going to make any difference at all. As I keep saying, we have to create a generation of youth who understand things and are educated and are not affected by criminal minds. I do not think any criminal wants to be a criminal, I do not believe that, but I believe if you get a kid and bring him up in a certain way and he is desensitised to everything that is right about life then he attaches himself to wrong and there is no-one to tell him any different. As Bob said, we need more role models and not unreachable models, not just football players or big famous rap stars, I am talking about attainable role models so they have hope: "I can be that, I can be like him". I guarantee none of those groups think they can be like you guys. Personally I have a nephew who has got a degree in politics but he is a from a minority, as you say, a very disproportionate minority. The majority in Hackney and all the different boroughs would not understand half of the words being spoken today because they failed from 12, 13 years old in school. If I may just make one more point. I was at Lambeth College giving a class last week and a kid around 19 or 20 years old was in the class and I was speaking, talking about music production and that kind of stuff, and he was one of the ones who were talking, most of them did not talk that much which in itself shows you their mindset, but this one was chatting and every other sentence was, "What was that? What does that mean?" and I was having to speak more commonly, as it were, to get my point across. I made a point about "mum and dad", I just said it in the context of what I was talking about, and he said, "I don't speak to none of my family". You just have to imagine they are different, they have a different life completely from anything that most of us understand.

Q469 Mrs Dean: The last question from me is, is there anything else that can be done to ensure opportunities are there for young people to make music in a positive way?

Mr Drakes: More can always be done, yes.

Mrs Dean: Any suggestions?

Q470 Chairman: What?

Mr Drakes: When I was a kid I lived on a housing estate and 300 or 400 yards either side of the housing estate there were two youth clubs - boys centres I think they were called or boys clubs - and after school I remember you did not have anything to do, you looked forward to getting into the boys club and you had snooker, pool, Space Invaders, various adults around to supervise you, mentor you, stop you from doing things, and we respected them. Those were the people I remember from between the ages of 11, say, and 16. I remember those people clearly. Nowadays my nephew is in Thornton Heath and there is nothing at all, he spends all day at home on the internet from 3.30 onwards after school until he goes to bed. He is on the internet doing his own thing, as it were, Bebo, MySpace websites, and there is nothing for him to do to engage in. There are no adults around him to ----

Mr Tyler: I think the government could get behind legitimate schemes that are easy to access. I have been watching one of the younger TV stations that had Arts Council money but filling out the forms and the way in which the money comes and everything else is something where young people do not want to read forms, they cannot be bothered to write out more than two boxes of information. Making things far more accessible is not just about money, it is about supporting partnerships, legitimate projects, allowing access to young people and perhaps even working with people like us in terms of offering an outlet for their music with 1Xtra or whatever. We are always happy to listen to all ideas.

Mr Parfitt: From my perspective, I think that this session is useful insofar as to understand the role of organisations like 1Xtra and Radio 1 and not to see it in a stereotypical way that sometimes I think it is when it is held up as playing rap music or making too much noise, but to understand the role it has is much, much broader than simply supporting new music, it has a social role, a democratic role as part of the BBC. It is wonderful to recognise the work that is going on. There is something also about celebrating what young audiences, young music makers do. In my job I see tens of thousands of under-25s every year enjoying music, taking part in music events, being enthusiastic about new sounds and being creative in a way that I think is remarkable and positive. That needs to be in our minds as well.

Chairman: Gentlemen, thank you very much indeed. That has been a very helpful session, thank you very much.

Examination of Witnesses

Witnesses: Mr Melvyn Davis, Director, boys2Men, and Mr Neil Solo, Coordinator, Babyfather Alliance, Barnardo's, gave evidence.

Q471 Chairman: Good afternoon. I think you both heard the previous session so you have some idea of how we operate. Could I ask each of you to introduce yourselves and then we will move straight to the questions.

Mr Solo: My name is Neil Solo. I am Project Manager of the Babyfather initiative at Barnardo's. We have been working in the African Caribbean community exploring fathering issues.

Mr Davis: My name is Melvyn Davis. I am the Manager of a project called boys2Men which works with boys, young men and fathers.

Q472 Chairman: Thank you very much indeed. As you have gathered, in trying to understand why there is an over-representation of young black people in the criminal justice system we have already established that there is a very complex set of factors involved, and you have just heard us wrestling with one small part of that, music and so on. I would like both of you to start with what role you think family and relationship factors may have in explaining why there is this over-representation of young black people in the criminal justice system.

Mr Solo: From the work that we have been conducting over the last three years in the African Caribbean community speaking with fathers themselves, both in the community and in custody, we think there is a very clear link between parents and young people and their activities. Specifically our work has centred on the involvement and importance and input of fathers. What we have found out there is that fathers are extremely important in many areas, such as raising self-esteem, building self-worth in children that can help to make them more resilient against the more destructive aspects of youth culture.

Q473 Chairman: Mr Davis, do you want to add to that?

Mr Davis: Yes. I think what I would say is that in a real sense the families provide the training ground for life. Where those families are vulnerable, where those families are isolated, where those families exist in conflicting or disadvantaged environments, children suffer as a consequence. We have too many negative examples where black families in particular are perceived to exist, or do exist, in environments that do not promote or present themselves in a positive light, so what you have is a trickle down effect where too many both from within and outside the community see black families in a very negative way and it becomes very difficult to support those isolated and vulnerable families in changing that dynamic for themselves and their children.

Q474 Chairman: Can you shed light on why there should be such a high proportion of lone parent families within the African Caribbean community? We have had a number of different explanations, some rooting back to the history of slavery and the disruption of family patterns that involved and other more modern factors, migration and so on. Do you have a sense of why this pattern of family break down appears to have become so deeply established?

Mr Solo: I think the issue is complex and I take on board what you have just said, the disruption in the evolution of the black family due to slavery. You have to be cautious in possibly trying to impose a Eurocentric 2.5 model on another ethnic grouping. The danger of that is that we could miss some of the important strengths that exist in that alternative model. In the African Caribbean community we hear of visiting fathers, so we do not have a broken down one parent family, we have an intact family structure where the father visits from outside the home. Also there are social factors involved. Linking on to what Melvyn said previously, the social conditions in which the majority of the African Caribbean community find themselves give rise to frustrations and tensions and that can lead to break down. Given the high proportion of African Caribbean families in those conditions I think you will find a higher number of one parent families.

Mr Davis: It is a very complex state of affairs that brings this about. If you look at slavery there are very strong arguments to be made about the generational impact on black communities. There has often been a long-held belief that black families existed with extended families and when our parents came over here - my parents came over here - they lost a lot of those links with their families, they lost a lot of the values and support structures they had, so they had to work very hard both to support the family and transmit the values they had from Jamaica into a culture that within themselves they were not necessarily welcomed into or felt a part of. I think what happened as a consequence of that was they did not have the support structures and as a result my generation did not have many of the things that they had. It was very late in my grandparents' lives that I met them for the first time. I did not have a very good what I would call moral upbringing. What I had was I had to work very hard and I had to be as good as other people in order to succeed and survive, which would not have been the case had I grown up in a different environment. The realities of growing up in an environment where you were made to feel different meant that you did not necessarily have some of those protective factors that go a long way to holding families together. Just going back to the previous discussion, where you have a culture which has materialised for lots of different reasons that promotes through music and lots of other mediums sex and violence and glamorises it, as in the previous conversation, there are consequences to that and some of those consequences we are seeing in children, in promiscuity, not just related to the black community but more closely related to poverty and deprivation where vulnerable communities have to find other ways of affirming themselves. In those harsh environments we have all had to bring ourselves up and as a result of that there has been a tendency to have a truncated childhood, a childhood that is often characterised by efforts to aspire to material wealth and adulthood far too quickly.

Chairman: Thank you.

Q475 Mr Streeter: Mr Solo, if I can just go back to something you said just now, you seemed to indicate that might be a different model for some families from the black community where perhaps the father does not live in the house but visits from time to time. Can you just say a bit more about that. Is that because the mother or the woman in the relationship wants it that way or would that be a choice by the father? Could you say a little bit more about that, I did not fully follow that one.

Mr Solo: Yes, sure. What we do is run the risk of maligning and demonising the family structure that does not conform to the 2.5 model. The reasons for this are complex and many. It works for that community. There are the deprivation and pressures I mentioned before that are moving partners away from each other. I would direct you to some research that was done by Robert Beckford from Birmingham University and whilst I have not got that study here today I will make sure that it gets to you.

Q476 Mr Streeter: Thank you very much. I think we all agree, however, that fatherlessness in any community is an issue and has consequences, and you have both said that. In your experience where there has been a family break down with the kinds of families you are working with, what kind of proportion of fathers stay in touch with their children compared to those who have no real contact with their children as they grow up?

Mr Solo: In our experience, talking with African Caribbean fathers, overwhelmingly the majority want contact and are frustrated in that generally by the operation of the law which would imply that mothers and women are the primary caregivers and also understanding that difficulties post-relationship will make the father visiting and building a relationship with the child somewhat more difficult. I would say that by and large in our experience, talking with fathers, the majority want that contact. In terms of percentages, it is hard to say.

Q477 Mr Streeter: Just ball park.

Mr Solo: Ball park, 40% I would say are not having contact and overwhelmingly the majority of African Caribbean fathers have contact at some level.

Mr Davis: I would support that. I think the vast majority of fathers do have some contact but the perception is because they are not resident they are absent.

Q478 Mr Streeter: Yes.

Mr Davis: There are lots of reasons for this. One Neil mentioned was economic. In a lot of the cases in the families that we work with if the father was to become resident the family would be penalised because the benefits are reduced, so unless he is working and has enough money to compensate for that loss of benefit they are financially better off living apart. A lot of those fathers do provide financial support to their partners without being resident with the family.

Q479 Mr Streeter: So they would have a flat somewhere else?

Mr Davis: Yes.

Q480 Mr Streeter: Do you think there is a specific link between that kind of family structure, and particularly I am exercised about the issue of fatherlessness and that relates to any community and every community, and young people, particularly young boys, getting involved in crime from the work that you have been doing? Could you speak to that, please, Mr Davis.

Mr Davis: I would say yes. In all the areas that we work within, which cover all the areas of social exclusion, the vast majority of the young people that we work with have very poor relationships or no contact at all with their fathers.

Q481 Mr Streeter: Yes.

Mr Davis: The impact of that is seen very much in the sense of identity and needing to belong somewhere, needing to validate who they are as males and men and that creates a vulnerability. It creates a vulnerability if, for instance, you are not successful in terms of education or you do not have other things to compensate for that and as a result of that you then compromise who you are in order to fit in, you go to extreme lengths or you create a caricature almost of masculinity in order to prove yourself. With a number of the boys that we work with the impact for them in not having a positive role model, in growing up in reality in a lot of cases in a very predominantly female environment, means they almost reject at some point in their journey towards masculinity a lot of what I would call life skills and emotional literacy that they need in order to cope with change, loss and disappointment. So we have boys with very narrow definitions of masculinity, behavioural traits that are very much around the machismo type behaviour, and this need underneath it all to connect with other men and other boys.

Q482 Mr Streeter: That is very helpful.

Mr Solo: I would support what Melvyn is saying in the sense that fathers are so important that the lack of a father in the life of a young person can promote something called "father hunger". Along with what Melvyn was saying, young boys have to develop and work out for themselves what it is to be a man and, given the context of the last discussion, working out what it is to be a man you learn to draw from a wider society and if that wider society is violent, is promoting getting by by any means you can, that child becomes vulnerable to that message without that father who is the best role model a child could have. I would definitely support, and this is borne out by the work we have done throughout the communities, that families are extremely important in the lives of young boys and young girls.

Mr Davis: If I could just pick up on something you said. I believe that it is something that affects all communities, classes, races, et cetera, but there is a particular dynamic in the black community, in black and ethnic communities as well, being in a predominantly white society in that you have to validate yourself as a male but you also have to validate yourself as a black male and that does have a compound effect, it does make it much more intense and, therefore, there are risks along the way in terms of finding your place in society but also being validated along the way in that process.

Q483 Mr Benyon: Mr Solo, we are interested in the evidence that you have provided on the way you have described the moving from traditional African Caribbean parenting methods to more modern methods, and you described it as a revision that is work in progress, and talked about the impact of this on setting boundaries and discipline. We have evidence from people who have deplored the lack of discipline amongst young people in their own communities saying it is a problem they have to address themselves. Can you say a bit more about this problem and the impact it is having on young people?

Mr Solo: Yes. There I was referring to the revision that is potentially taking place in the African Caribbean community. In the Caribbean the use of corporal punishment and physical discipline is not unheard of. It is not abusive but it is not unheard of. In the movement to, I would not say a modern society, I would say to European society where corporal punishment is not the first option, we have a people who have to seek new ways of enforcing discipline in guiding their youth. As I said in the written evidence, this is a work in progress. As this revision takes place the loosening of the ties between family and child can be loosened and allow for the more destructive elements of youth culture to take place. Also in that move from the Caribbean to England, Caribbean peoples, not to romanticise that community, exercise the idea that it takes a whole village to raise a child. Where we find ourselves now operating in nuclear family units the village is no longer there, so when Johnny is down the road committing graffiti or whatever that can often get overlooked. If we were operating on it takes a whole village to raise a child, adults in that community would feel a responsibility for that child, for that community and could intervene. These traditional ties are loosening and it creates a gap.

Q484 Mr Benyon: That is the problem and we are trying to find a solution. That is a really interesting area of thought that we have got to consider. How can we get communities to take responsibility for that child in the way that they did perhaps, or still do, in the Caribbean?

Mr Solo: I think in the African Caribbean community, and from the context in which I am working we can see the important link between fathers and the outcomes for children, what we would like to see, or what we would like to suggest, is a celebration of fatherhood. What we have here is black men and fathers who are subject to the most negative stereotypes. I feel in talking with African Caribbean men throughout the country that this has robbed them of a confidence that they need to assert themselves as fathers and as community members. It is not lost on that community and African Caribbean men and youth that they are over-represented in the mental health system, they are over-represented in the penal system and African Caribbean children are disproportionately excluded from schools. This is not lost on men and the community which tends to weaken it and its ability to enforce its protective role, especially in regards to fathers who are seen as mad, bad or sad. In talking with fathers they feel devalued. What we would have to do is to continue to work with African Caribbean men and the community to celebrate the gifts that fathers have to offer.

Q485 Mr Benyon: Could we extend that, Mr Davis. You have both drawn attention to the existence of a negative self-image amongst black males. Do you have any thoughts as to the root causes of this in the same way that Mr Solo has expressed?

Mr Davis: I think it starts very much with the family and the early years experiences of children. Most things you have to look at to really understand and appreciate the context and the environment in which these children have grown up and the messages that they are constantly being given. The overt ones I think we have done very well as a society in dampening down but throughout life and throughout the journey of a black man growing up there are so many messages and pitfalls, negative messages and, as a consequence, pitfalls that arise. To give an example: in some of the work that we do we get young people to think very much about what it is that makes them who they are and top of the list will often be "I am black" and then you ask them what does that mean and it actually does not mean anything, it has not got anything of substance. It is not a culture in the same way that other cultures exist, it is fluid, not substantive. What makes you black as an individual is often a response to the discrimination and negativity that you face. If that is the basis upon which you are developing your identity and personality it then has a tendency to be quite defensive, negative obviously and almost entirely self-deprecating because you do not see yourself as an equal within society, you are somebody who is tolerated, somebody who has undue power and influence in that you walk into a room and people pick up their mobile phones or readjust themselves because you enter a room, people react to you, the security guard in a shop will spend more time focusing on you and children, black boys in particular, are aware of these things. That sends very powerful messages about acceptance and belonging and it has a detrimental impact on the notion of citizenship and acceptance.

Q486 Mr Benyon: We have had evidence from people who say that if our report does not find that young black people face enormous amounts of discrimination and racism in their daily lives we will be part of the problem as much as anything. I suppose what I am really trying to ask you is how much of it is perception and how much of it is reality? You have spoken about everyday factors in people's lives which affect their self-esteem and can contribute to problems that they may get into. In everyday life, is racism and discrimination a real burdensome, horrendous factor in young black males' lives?

Mr Davis: I would answer it in this way. When you grow up as a black male in an ethnic minority, as I have already said, because you are not validated by wider society you have these things that you draw to yourself to validate yourself. Speaking personally, and characterising that with some of the young people I work with, the analogy would be you wake up in the morning and you may pick up your iPod, your mobile phone and then you pick up your paranoia because as you go through life the moment you step outside that door there are people you are going to meet who will react to you and you have no idea why they are reacting to you in that way. If I am dressed as I am today and I sit on a Tube and there is a seat beside me, that seat will be taken up quite quickly, but if I am dressed very differently, as I sometimes am, much more sporty, relaxed casual attire, often that seat will not be taken even when there are no other seats available, people will choose to stand. I can choose to ignore that but that does not mean I am unaware of it.

Q487 Mr Winnick: Would that not happen to a white person who was dressed in the sort of clothes you are mentioning? Would there not be some hesitation, not because of the colour of the skin but simply because of the possibility of criminality which could come as easily from a white or Asian person as a black person? Would you not accept that?

Mr Davis: I would accept that as a possibility but given my history ----

Q488 Mr Winnick: More so as a black person?

Mr Davis: Exactly.

Q489 Mr Winnick: I accept that.

Mr Davis: It is that perception that becomes reality. If it is real for me then it is real.

Q490 Mr Benyon: You are saying that in these circumstances perception is reality.

Mr Davis: Very much so.

Q491 Mr Benyon: Regardless of why that seat is empty you believe it is empty because of the colour of your skin.

Mr Davis: But I do not think it ends there. I think it is about the other protective factors: how do I deal with that? Everybody will face discrimination in their lives but do I have other skills or things to offset that or if my identity is just about my colour and my ethnicity I do not have other things to offset that with. My self-esteem, my self-worth and my self-efficacy are not just around whether you sit next to me on a bus or a train, I have other things that make me feel good about myself; a lot of these young people do not.

Q492 Mr Benyon: We went down to Bristol to look at a scheme there and these points were all being made by an organisation called Right Track but when the individual who followed these cases up with the young people, going to the school or to see the police and was saying, "There has been an allegation of discrimination here", in nearly all of them there may have been ignorance but it was not racism. What I am trying to get to the bottom of, and perhaps Mr Solo might like to comment, is how we tackle that difference between perception and reality and whether the two are the same.

Mr Solo: From the way people act perception is reality. However, I would revisit the point I made earlier in terms of the question is racism playing a part. I think the messages that the young black youth receive are very specific. When we had the killings of Anthony Walker and Stephen Lawrence this was saying "This is a racist killing" and this sends out a message to young African Caribbean youth that they have less stake in this society than possibly they do perceive.

Q493 Mrs Cryer: We need to look for solutions, there is no point just keeping trawling over where we are now, that will not help. Can I just check with you that I have got something right. According to our graphs, 57% of the families within the black Caribbean community are lone parents. Am I right in saying that were those families still in Jamaica the percentage would be pretty similar, there would still be this majority of parents, mothers, bringing up children alone but I think what you are saying, Neil, is the difference would be that they would be helped along that path by a supportive village or community? Have I got that right?

Mr Solo: Yes.

Q494 Mrs Cryer: We are where we are, so what could either of you suggest that would be the strongest single thing that could happen to help steer young black people away from a life of crime given the position that we are in now?

Mr Solo: It is an incredibly complex argument and one that is not going to be solved overnight. From our point of view at Barnardo's and the Babyfather initiative and the work that Barnardo's has been doing in the community, the feedback that we are getting would suggest that we are some way along the right track. Again, for us this is about bringing that community together, helping them to recognise that they are a community, going beyond working as a community, working directly with fathers, celebrating fathers as a positive resource as the most appropriate role model a child could have. In terms of solutions and turning children away from deviant behaviour, from our point of view we would suggest more work in the communities, more work with parents, and in that regard we welcome the Government's initiative, the National Academy for Parenting Practitioners, as a good move in this area.

Mr Davis: I think we are all familiar with the realities of the over-representation and disproportionate number of black people who are in the criminal justice system and end up in prison. The reality that we face and work within is that many of these young people go into prison, youth offending institutions, come out and go back into their same communities and as a result they have less hope, if you like, than they had before. Before they went in they maybe were failing in school but now they have come out with poor education and a criminal record. They then go back into their communities and really only have one option, which is to not get caught next time. I think that is one area that I would like to see some real work and effort put into to ensure that those young people who do come out are not just left to, as it were, train up the next generation of young people. One other area of social exclusion for me that I think is scandalous and really we should be making much more of a political, if needs be, or community campaign around is the high number of young black males who are excluded from school. I think that is the beginning really. Once you fail to be educated properly your options, your resources, how you are viewed in society, all of those things impact greatly on your life chances and outcomes. I know schools which have experiences of 30 or so young boys in a particular year being excluded. I was talking to a young person not too long ago who said to me that every single black boy in his class before year 11 had been excluded. Often that is for reasons that I would consider with a little effort and probably some accountability if schools were picked up on these things, through Ofsted reports, et cetera, they should not be happening on the scale and level that they are and we are allowing to happen and not making a big song and dance about it. Going back to what Neil said, it sends a very powerful message about, "Am I valued? Am I accepted within society?" If we can have such large cohorts of black young males excluded from the educational system and nothing is said on a national level, it does not make the news, as it were, then what message is that saying to "How am I valued? How am I viewed within society?" If black males are shot and killed on the streets and that does not make the news and does not result in a big campaign, again it sends a very powerful message about how we are viewed. We need to be far more angry, far more militant almost, about making sure that we do identify why these things are happening and we put stringent things in place to make sure they do not. I do not think it is that difficult but the will has not materialised or the way has not been identified in the way that it should have been and resources have not been applied effectively.

Mr Solo: Could I just add in terms of solutions that Barnardo's and the Babyfather initiative have attempted to be proactive in this area and we have developed two specific training programmes that we are particularly proud of. We spent the best part of 2005 speaking with practitioners from a variety of settings, from social workers to teenage pregnancy workers and health visitors, and the message we got from that dialogue was the central difficulty that they were having was one of engagement. We have been proactive in this regard in developing a training programme specifically for practitioners who are having difficulty engaging African Caribbean men, engaging them in their services. In terms of solutions and being proactive, Barnardo's have developed a culturally specific parenting programme for African Caribbean fathers. Again, this is to meet the demand that fathers have expressed to us and we have identified ourselves. The parenting programmes are there but services are not reaching the community, so what we have done is we have developed something that is culturally specific and we have had some opportunity to try this out over the year and it has proved successful.

Q495 Mrs Cryer: My next question was what the government can do to address the problems that are causing young people to become involved in crime. I think you have answered it. Neil, I think you said perhaps money can go through Social Services, presumably, to encourage better parenting within the community. If you could say to the government, "Can you give us help?", would that be what you would be asking for now?

Mr Solo: I work for Barnardo's in the voluntary sector and I see that particular sector of society engendering more trust from the community. I am not so sure we would have had the success we have had if our community was getting that from the local authority. I think the success of the Barnardo's Babyfather initiative has been based on the fact that it has been from the voluntary sector and that engenders more trust in the community. In terms of what the government could do specifically for ourselves and for other groups in the area, that is to open up lines of dialogue, distribute programmes that have been developed. I mentioned away from the voluntary sector, the government moves around the National Academy for Parenting Practitioners, which is a wonderful idea in terms of equipping the workforce to work more effectively with this group.

Q496 Mrs Cryer: Melvyn, would your request to government, if you were able to do that, be to put more resources through local education authorities and schools in order to try to keep more black boys within the school system much longer than we are achieving at the moment? Do you think that would be the best way of directing government funding to keep those same black men out of the criminal justice system?

Mr Davis: Yes, I would agree with most of that. I think what I would be saying is that money would need to be ring-fenced, that money would need to be both given to schools and to voluntary sector community groups who may be better able to work with that young person or also work with parents as well. It needs to be long-term because this is not a problem that can be solved with a year or two years' funding. We have a cycle, a generational problem that we need to tackle here, and there needs to be a long-term commitment to addressing that. If we can tackle the leakage from the education system we will begin to see young people coming out with more options, with more choices. The young people that I have to spend time working with too often feel that they have no choice and we spend a long time trying to convince them that they do have choices. From the starting point that they are often coming from when they are 17 or 18 years of age and cannot read or write, their self-esteem, their sense of being a man, hoping that will change whilst their emotional development is severely stunted and limited, that is the difficulty that we face. We are failing them educationally in so many different ways and it is not just about academic education it is preparing them for life and the environments that they exist in. We can always look and say not every single parent family has these problems but we can see that too many do and often there are other protective factors in those single parent families that need to be recognised and too many of the families that we work with are isolated, vulnerable and do not have the resources to deal with that.

Martin Salter: Melvyn, I just want to follow up something you said that rang some bells with me. I am very interested in re-offending and this revolving door that we have got. You said that a lot of young black males are coming out of prison even less able to get a job outside of the criminal networks than they were before they went into prison so they are more likely to re-offend. There are some schemes rattling around that take lads from prison and give them training, education and a work placement, so there is a completely different pathway for those kids, another option for those young men when they come out of prison. I may be wrong but from what I have seen in some of these schemes black people were not particularly highly represented in that approach. Can I just get your reaction starting from the point of particularly young black men who are coming out of prison and who are almost certainly going to be back there again, almost certainly going to re-offend, and targeting intervention at that point to enable them to develop the skills to get a job.

Chairman: This is becoming quite a long question, Martin.

Q497 Martin Salter: Two hours of pent-up thought.

Mr Davis: One of the earliest experiences I had of working with young people was in Aylesbury Prison, a young offenders' institution, and I remember working with a group of young people in there and the statistics at that time were 17-18% of young offenders would re-offend before they were 18. I had a group of ten and I was saying, "Seven or eight of you are going to be back in here within two years" and every single one of them said, "No, I'm not coming back. This is my last time". But when we began to explore what that meant in reality, they were going back into communities, they had made their resolutions they were not going to go back and they may have had a GCSE O level certificate that they had got whilst they were inside which made them feel great, made them feel "I've got real life choices when I come out of here, I'm going to get a job. I didn't get this in formal education but I got this inside", but they go out and any employer would then say, "Where have you been? What have you been doing?" You can see those young people being crushed and when they come back into those communities, those communities have not moved on, they are still very much the same communities supporting their experiences that led them to commit those offences. They may have made those choices but the support for them to maintain that at the point when they come out is not often there and it is not there in a form that makes a difference. This was one of the reasons why when we established our mentoring programme, our mentoring programme works with young people for two to three years because in the work that I do I think it is very easy to help young people to feel uncomfortable with themselves or maybe even feel guilty about things they have done but to get them to change, to move from that to be different, the cost of that is often to move away from their friends and the environment that has often supported that, and that is extremely difficult.

Q498 Chairman: Can I take this a bit further because we have talked a lot in one way or another about professional and funded support for parenting skills, for families and young people. To what extent should we be putting down a challenge to the communities from which these young people come to take more responsibility, to show leadership towards young people? I am probably misinterpreting what you were saying but I get this almost negative message that things in communities are so bad this is going to have to be done through the voluntary sector, through Social Services, but not through communities themselves.

Mr Davis: I certainly think that communities have a role to play but we also have to look at the place of those communities within society, who has the power and who has the accountability at the end of the day. Most of the communities that are vulnerable and over-represented do not have the leadership, the resources or the infrastructure to actually make those changes and they need a lot of support in order to make those things happen. Some of the things that I am alluding to do not actually cost a lot of money; it is the structure. There is a lot of money that is given towards supporting vulnerable families in communities but I would be very interested to know how much of that is in real terms geared towards or actually making an impact in the black community. Most of the programmes that we get called in to work with are asked to engage with hard-to-reach communities. For me a black community is not a hard-to-reach community because I am from there but for another organisation that is coming from outside of that area, they may have been successful in obtaining that funding but they then have a big bridge to cross in terms of how to engage with those communities. That is why we place the emphasis on voluntary organisations or community organisations being better resourced and given the infrastructure and maybe supported or mentored by other organisations so that they can tackle problems because ultimately I believe it is the black community itself that could and should solve this problem.

Q499 Chairman: Brief answers from both of you following on from that because it may be in your written evidence; can you just describe how you measure the effectiveness of the work that each of your organisations does. This is a difficult issue so how would you want to be measured or assessed on the effectiveness of your work? Mr Solo?

Mr Solo: In terms of the work that we do and in terms of the work that we are trying to do -and that is to change the value base of for example a father so that he can be more responsible and more consistent in his parenting - it is very difficult to measure. However, the success in what we have done we can measure in a number of ways. The usual feedback sheets at the end of our sessions from the fathers themselves say it has been helpful in informing them. The fact that fathers - and I think this is the beauty of the voluntary sector - come back week after week or month after month and there is no compulsion. I feel that there is something in what Barnardo's Babyfather is offering fathers and the community that is valued and is authentic and fathers are voting with their feet. In terms of further evaluation of our work, we have had Manchester and Liverpool adopt our model of working with African Caribbean men, this hard-to-reach group, and they have been quite successful and are now working with fathers in their own communities themselves, which links back to your previous point about responsibility.

Q500 Chairman: So it is spreading good practice. Mr Davis?

Mr Davis: For me the qualitative side of the work is often the difficult thing to measure. The nature of the support that is often needed and the milestones towards getting a young person who cannot read to read are easy to measure in terms of academic ability, but the support and the social factors that exist there are not recognised. For instance, that young person may not have been motivated or able to focus on their education because their father was not involved in their life in the way that they wanted them to be. So the work that Neil and other agencies might do in terms of engaging that father is not seen in terms of a measurable output but is actually the catalyst for change for that young person. I think it is very complex. A lot of funders will say we want the impact, we want the outcomes but you are not measuring like-for-like in a lot of cases. You have to assess basically where that young person is coming from and that should be the basis for that measurement rather than simply having a milestone that says we want everybody to achieve that because you may achieve that but that young person has not necessarily moved on in terms of their personal and emotional development.

Q501 Mrs Dean: Mr Davis, in your evidence you say that there is a need to stop funding music projects. Could you tell us if that is because you think music projects are ineffective or because you think the type of music projects that are funded have a negative impact on young people?

Mr Davis: I was very interested and I listened intently to the other speakers, all of whom I am sure make quite a lot of money from the music industry. I agree with them to a point that the music does reflect some people's experiences (not all) within the black community, however the perception for those other people whose lives are not affected or reflected in that way see that very much as something to aspire to, and if the music is not being used to solve the problem, then it is part of the problem. If you have artists who portray themselves very much, as, "I'm a pimp, I used to be drug dealer, look at me now", all of these things are sending really powerful messages to vulnerable young people who are seeking role models and looking for alternatives to getting maths GCSE or studying for their three A stars. So I think we have to have far more accountability and responsibility in terms of the programmes that we fund and that funding needs to be geared towards what is preventative rather than what is reflective. If music is about reflecting what is going on out there then we do not need any more negative images reflected about the black community. What we need is preventative programmes that change that perception and alter that reflection.

Chairman: That is a very good point on which to bring the afternoon to a close.

Martin Salter: Excellent, excellent.

Chairman: Can we thank you both very much indeed for your help.