Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60-79)
MR MARTIN
DINHAM, MR
DAVID HALLAM,
MR MICHAEL
ANDERSON AND
MR PETER
GOODERHAM
24 OCTOBER 2006
Q60 Mr Singh: Why can we not get
them to agree to anything?
Mr Dinham: I think they would
answer that the security situation for them is such that they
cannot meet the requirements of the Movement and Access Agreement.
If you look at the Movement and Access Agreement, the points in
it show that if there is a particular problem at a particular
crossing that might mean that goods and services cannot go through
that crossing but then they should be immediately transferred
to another crossing where there is not a problem. Those are the
kinds of practical issues which are addressed in the Movement
and Access Agreement, but I think the Israelis have taken a blanket
view of the security situation which for them is such that they
cannot move on movement and access issues at the moment, and we
have sought to find technical and technocratic ways of trying
to alleviate that, and obviously there is a dialogue on the political
front as well.
Q61 Richard Burden: I would like
to ask you a couple of questions about trade, but before doing
that can I pursue you a little bit more when you said that the
UK specifically and the international community more generally
worked very successfully and had no difficulty working with the
previous Palestinian government. Would you say the same about
the Israeli Government, that they did not have any difficulty
working with the previous Palestinian government?
Mr Gooderham: In the day-to-day
sense, of course, there were problems that proved difficult to
resolve on one side or the other, but the two institutions, as
it were, on the Israeli and the Palestinian side were in dialogue
and there were meetings from time to time. It was not entirely
satisfactory; we are not trying to suggest that it was a harmonious
relationship, but there was not a difficulty in the fundamental
sense.
Q62 Richard Burden: Was Israel prepared
to negotiate with the previous Palestinian government?
Mr Gooderham: Yes.
Mr Dinham: The example really
is the Agreement on Movement and Access which was signed last
November and it followed disengagement, and James Wolfensohn had—
Q63 Richard Burden: Disengagement
was not negotiated.
Mr Dinham: Disengagement was not,
but the role of the Quartet, and their representative there was
Jim Wolfensohn, was to try and build on this disengagement process
and to try and use that, even though it was not negotiated, in
a way where a positive outcome could come of that, particularly
looking at movement and access issues. Indeed, Secretary Rice
was there in the final stages of signing that agreement to ensure
that it was brought to fruition. So there was a point towards
the end of last year when there was a successful negotiation and
that was very positive, and there are a lot of very positive aspects
to that agreement. Before the Hamas government, there were points
where there was agreement and negotiation and it was up and down
a bit but that was a different place from where we are now.
Q64 Richard Burden: I am just trying
to work out the approach that you have been articulating, how
you want to secure change and where that is leading and what is
likely to happen. We know from a number of questions that long
before Hamas was elected the closures were increasing, not decreasing,
the settlements were increasing, not decreasing. There were problems
in students and teachers getting to schools and colleges and a
barrier was being built in defiance of international law on Palestinian
land and, though it has not been given in evidence so far, you
probably agree with me that there was some frustration on the
Palestinian side about the difficulty of getting the Israeli Government
to the negotiating table. If your approach is right and these
polite representations to the Israelis and more direct pressure
on the Palestinians work, what assurances do we have from the
Government of Israel that their approach next time will be any
different from the approach they had last time?
Mr Dinham: We do not have any
direct assurances of that nature, but we believe that working
as far as we can with the Israeli Government, both in dealings
with them publicly and privately and discussing some of these
issues, as we have done with President Abbas and as we were in
the past with the previous Palestinian Authority, is the way to
try and engineer change.
Q65 Richard Burden: If we just look
at trade issues and the Karni crossing, the World Bank reports
that a number of the difficulties there are to do with poor management
of the border at Karni, and you made some comments of that kind
before, but what actually needs to happen at Karni? What does
Israel need to do and what do the Palestinians need to do?
Mr Dinham: I think there are two
areas. One is to provide sufficient security—for the Palestinian
side to be able to provide sufficient security to provide reassurances
to the Israelis, and the other thing is—
Q66 Richard Burden: What does that
mean? What do they need to do?
Mr Hallam: The Palestinian side
needs to be able to convince the Israeli side that they will be
safe operating Karni.
Q67 Richard Burden: What would be
a reasonable thing for the Israelis to ask them for, given the
situation that the Palestinians have been talking about? What
would it be reasonable for the Israeli state to say, "To
satisfy the security concerns this is what you have to do"
What have they actually been able to do?
Mr Hallam: General Dayton, the
US Security Coordinator, is working closely with the Israelis
and the Palestinians to try and work out exactly what will do
and has a plan. I am not a security expert so I cannot tell you
what does and what does not have to be done, but there is a plan,
there are things that could happen to make things better. There
have been terrorist attacks on Karni, so it is not an imaginary
risk.
Mr Anderson: If I can fill in
some of the detail? The security of premises needs to be much
better than it has been with proper security guarding. More important
than that, we need much improved detection systems for any goods
going across.
Q68 Richard Burden: The Palestinians
need to have those?
Mr Anderson: Yes, on the Palestinian
side they need the right kinds of large scanners and detection
systems to ensure that weapons and bombs are not getting through.
From the Israeli perspective, there have been a number of attacks
and they are worried quite rightly about a bomb coming through
and exploding on the Israeli side. The detection has to happen
on the Palestinian side and the Israelis are very concerned about
security, so they will have a high level of scrutiny. They will
want to see that is is being done to the very highest of standards.
That is what has to be achieved.
Q69 Richard Burden: And who is the
one to do that at the moment? Given the fact that you have this
problem of talking to the government who is actually going to
install the scanners?
Mr Anderson: Two or three days
ago the President's Office issued a decree bringing the border
agency under his direct control, and so it is independent and
is the entity which can run this, and the Presidential Guard has
been made responsible for guarding Karni, so it is entirely under
the President's Office now. That is the vehicle through which
General Dayton is looking to provide international assistance
to ensure that all the infrastructure systems and training is
in place to provide security guarantees. The Israelis will need
to have confidence so they can allow Karni to open up.
Q70 Richard Burden: And what have
the Israelis got to do?
Mr Anderson: The Israelis, of
course, are going to have to co-operate with this and sign off.
They will have to commit to keeping their half of the border crossing
open provided that the Palestinians deliver the right level of
security. They will have a high level scrutiny early on to ensure
that nothing is getting through which poses a security threat.
Q71 Richard Burden: Is there anything
the Israelis should be doing now before that process is completed
by the Palestinian side?
Mr Anderson: General Dayton is
working with the Israelis very closely, he is working with the
IDF and he is working with the border people to go through all
of the details, and one of the key issues is sharing information
to give the Israelis assurances along the way, so they will need
systems for monitoring the way in which the Palestinian security
is carried out.
Q72 Richard Burden: What you are
saying is what the Israelis need to do to monitor the Palestinians'
obligations. What I am asking you is what does the British Government
think now the Israelis should be doing to build—you talk
about the need to build confidence on the Israeli side about what
the Palestinians are doing. What do the Israelis need to do to
build confidence on the Palestinian side now rather than monitoring
what the Palestinians are doing?
Mr Anderson: It is to co-operate
very closely with General Dayton who is bringing the two sides
together.
Q73 Richard Burden: Will they ever
do it?
Mr Anderson: They will clearly
have to once they have the right kind of security assurances.
Q74 Richard Burden: So until they
are satisfied, according to their criteria, that they have got
the right level of security, the British Government is saying
that they should not open the border?
Mr Anderson: Obviously, we encourage
Karni to be open as much as possible. It is inevitably the case
that the IDF will receive intelligence about possible security
threats. When that happens they will at times want to close down
the border, but we encourage them to keep their bar at a level
that will keep it open as much as possible. General Dayton is
working with them closely to try promote that as well.
Q75 Richard Burden: Can you tell
me what the current status of the EU Palestine Association Agreement
is?
Mr Hallam: It exists. It is in
place.
Q76 Richard Burden: Has it been suspended?
Mr Dinham: It is in place.
Q77 Richard Burden: Is it working?
Mr Dinham: The effectiveness of
the Association Agreement has always been dependent on the movement
of goods and services and the ability for exports and imports
to move freely in and out of the Palestinian Territories. So even
in the past, although the Association Agreement should have been,
and should be, a force for strengthening the economy, the agreement
itself is fine in theory but in practice it has been very difficult
for the Palestinians to export much of their product or move it
within the Territory or export it to countries adjoining. I met
a farmer in the Jericho Valley who had spent 16 years trying to
export bananas to Jordan, and for the first time this year he
has succeeded, but it is not easy.
Q78 Richard Burden: Can you tell
me what the status of the EU Israel Association is?
Mr Dinham: Again, that is in place.
Q79 Richard Burden: In your evidence
to us you say, in paragraph 52, "Palestinian development
is helped through Israel's Association Agreement with the EU".
What is the evidence for that?
Mr Hallam: The evidence is, shall
we say, relative in that we know from economic analysis how much
the Palestinian economy is dependent on the Israeli economy, and
therefore if Israel's economy grows that has a positive impact
on the Palestinian economy. On the basis that the EU Israel Association
Agreement has beneficial effects on the Israeli economy, which
I do not think is in doubt, the assumption is that it therefore
has a beneficial effect on the Palestinian economy.
| 
