Examination of Witnesses (Questions 320-333)
RT HON
HILARY BENN
MP, MR MARTIN
DINHAM, MR
DAVID HALLAM
AND MR
PETER GOODERHAM
14 DECEMBER 2006
Q320 Richard Burden: Would that apply
to the West Bank as well?
Hilary Benn: Yes.
Q321 Richard Burden: Whilst we were
there we were told of a particular example of a Palestinian businessman
who had been trying to import some machinery from Germany and
he had great difficulty importing it. When he finally got it he
found that it had been broken. It was constantly held up apparently
for "security reasons". What he did was, rather than
try to find his way through the Israeli customs and other restrictions,
he got on the phone to an Israeli friend of his who was an importer
and said, "Can you import this for me?" and it came
within two days, I think. The issues on movement and access of
goods and people is different in the West Bank but it is there
as well. What can we do in the West Bank as well as Gaza and Karni
to persuade Israel that they need to lighten up and allow trade
to take place at least on some basis?
Hilary Benn: Simply by raising
it as we do, and as I did in the conversations that I had with
both of the Israeli Ministers that I met yesterday. When I met
representatives of the Palestinian private sector they were very
vociferous in making that point, although obviously not that particular
example. As one of them put to me, "If you have got a contract
with someone and you are incapable of guaranteeing delivery, it
is not very surprising if they go to somebody else to do the business
in future". If I can just say about Karni, the fact it has
demonstrated in the past its capacity to shift a lot more stuff
with more trucks, I really do hope that because of the ceasefire
we will see progress once again on that. General Dayton has been
working extremely hard on that and the Presidential Guard is now
beginning to deploy to Karni. There are other problems to do with
corruption, which is an issue there as well, which sometime determine
whose goods get through and whose goods do not, but I hope we
are going to see things change. Certainly the Israelis that I
talk to recognised the need to try and move on that, they would
always say consistent with ensuring their security.
Q322 Richard Burden: A final question
on that. The Israelis obviously do have security concerns at Karni
and they would argue on the West Bank as well. Recognising that
they do have those concerns, does the Government consider that
the response of the Government of Israel to the security concerns
they do have in either place is a proportionate response?
Hilary Benn: In the end the Israelis
have to make the judgment. They would point to all of the measures
that they have put in place, as the Foreign Minister did in her
conversation with me. They would point to the reduction in the
number of attacks and suicide bombings and they would say that
those measures have had an effect and their responsibility to
their own citizens is to ensure that they are protected from people
who would come to try and kill them. I would say, and I did make
the point in my discussions, there is short-term security, absolutely,
but what are you leaving beyond those physical measures and is
that contributing to security in the longer term? In reaching
a decision on that you have got to weigh up the short-term impact
for absolutely understandable reasons, because if your citizens
are at risk of being blown up by suicide bombers, if it was happening
in our constituencies, Mr Burden, our constituents would have
something to say to us about ensuring that they were protected
from that to the greatest extent possible? But a Palestinian territory
that is in the condition that it is currently is not conducive,
in my opinion, to long-term security, it is not.
Q323 Chairman: On a seasonal note,
we were in Bethlehem and the Palestinian owner of the hotel we
had the meeting in told us that normally he would be two or three
times overbooked at Christmas time but his occupancy rate was
two per cent, and the rates were not extravagant, which raises
a huge irony that that kind of closure is disrupting what would
be a very substantial income for the people of Palestine. I just
wonder whether opening Bethlehem for Christmas would be a nice
gesture on top of the ceasefire.
Hilary Benn: It certainly would.
It is one manifestation of the impact that the current situation
is having on lots and lots of people's lives.
Q324 Hugh Bayley: Free trade depends
upon the principle of reciprocity and the European Union has a
trade preference agreement with Israel and with the Palestinian
Authority, and the terms of the agreements are virtually identical.
Israel benefits from its trade preference but Palestine does not
benefit from its trade preference because of the actions of the
State of Israel. Do you think the recommendation which the Committee
made in its last report that until the situation changes the trade
preference to Israel should be suspended is something the Government
will consider further?
Hilary Benn: It is not my view,
and it is not the Government's view, that that would be the right
thing to do in the current circumstances.
Q325 Hugh Bayley: To draw a parallel,
through the Everything but Arms Agreement, the European Union
has tariff-free, quota-free access for the goods of least-developed
countries to the European Union. If some African least-developed
country blocked access of goods from a landlocked African least-developed
country to the European Union we would do something about it,
the EU would not extend the benefits of the trade agreement to
a country that was blocking the opportunity for a neighbouring
country to trade and possibly getting an advantage. There is a
violation of international rules and norms by both sides in this
dreadful dispute but there is a perception internationally that
we in Britain take retaliatory action against Palestinian organisations
that break the law or break international rules and that we talk
to Israel to try and persuade them to mend their ways when they
break rules but do not take retaliatory action. Is that not an
unbalanced response to part of the problem?
Hilary Benn: I recognise that
some people have that perception. Going back to the subject that
we have discussed extensively this afternoon, I would not describe
the action we have taken following the election of the Hamas-led
government as retaliatory action; it is about upholding principles
which, from my point of view, are the only basis upon which the
problem is going to be solved. I have made my position very clear
on that. The EU-Palestinian Association Agreement does provide,
as you know, reciprocal duty free treatment to industrial goods
and duty free or reduced tariff treatment for agricultural products
and, therefore, in theory, and I accept the point, the Palestinian
economy could benefit considerably. The problem is the restrictions
on movement and access. In those circumstances I think the right
thing to do is to do exactly what we have been doing, which is
to make the point that reducing those restrictions, improving
access, will enable the fragile lungs of the Palestinian economy
to breathe because at the moment that airway has been pretty choked
by the restrictions on movement, to extend the analogy. That is
the best way of making progress. The Government of Israel would
say, "The reasons for the restrictions are our desire to
protect our people from security risks". Now, if the ceasefire
holds, if people stop firing Qassam rockets, if the violence stops,
then it is pretty clear in my mind that things can begin to move
and the consequences of those restrictions on the Palestinian
economy can begin to reduce, that is the way forward.
Q326 James Duddridge: Firstly, Secretary
of State, apologies that I had to pop out. Apologies for that
discourtesy. If I could take you back to Gaza. Given the appalling
lack of movement and access, does the UK Government consider that
the Gaza Strip is actually still occupied?
Hilary Benn: The settlements are
no longer there. Obviously there have been incursions since withdrawal
because of the concerns that Israel has about its security. I
think it is a point that people could debate. The people of Gaza
do not feel that it has resulted in a big change in their circumstances
but Israel would say, "We have left, we are not there any
more". Mr Gooderham, do you want to comment?
Mr Gooderham: Yes. I think that
is exactly what Israel would say.
Q327 James Duddridge: Given there
are almost siege-like conditions in Gaza, what assessment has
the UK Government made of there being a possibility of a sustainable
Palestinian state? How is this going to play out?
Hilary Benn: Well, it depends
on the negotiation of a peace deal. If there is peace and people
stop trying to kill each other then the need for all of these
things that we have just been discussing in terms of restrictions
and security and so on and so forth, then begin to disappear.
It is also about trust. There is a terrible lack of trust on both
sides. You know it and you will have heard it in a lot of your
conversations and I have certainly encountered it. It is how you
break the cycle of distrust and violence and enmity and all of
that. If the circumstances change then things could look very,
very different. To take one small example of that: when the Israelis
left Gaza they left the greenhouses, and some of them sadly were
damaged following the withdrawal. The Palestinians invested time,
money and effort in growing vegetables but a lot of them either
had to be thrown away or given away because they could not get
through the Karni crossing. When I was there on Monday there was
a lorry-load of tomatoes sitting there in the sun. The guy in
charge on the Palestinian side said, "I think we'll get them
through today," but that was just with my own eyes seeing
the problem in a very practical way. If we can get Karni moving
so that all of those bays, and there are tons of them, are open,
and they were not all open the day I was there, and you can shift
lorries, as it has been capable of shifting lorries and goods
through in the past, then things will begin to change. Ultimately
it comes down to the politics.
Q328 Hugh Bayley: You have made very
clear, Secretary of State, what the British Government believes
Hamas needs to do to enable the peace process to make progress,
but what is the Government's view about the steps which need to
be taken by the PLO and independently by the Palestinian Authority
and by the State of Israel? What steps do they need to take to
enable progress on the peace process and the Roadmap to take place?
Hilary Benn: Mr Gooderham may
also want to comment. It is not to try and reduce this to a really
simple answer but I would say for all of those to demonstrate
a willingness to negotiate in good faith, to recognise that if
this is going to be solved people are going to have to compromise.
There is no peace process in the world that I have ever seen that
has been successful that did not involve compromise on either
side. People have applied their minds and a lot of people I spoke
to said, "The broad outlines of an agreement are pretty clear.
The question is, are people prepared to do it?"
Mr Gooderham: I would just add
to that that the frustrating thing, of course, is that for some
years now there has been an international blueprint in the shape
of the Roadmap which sets out very clearly to both the Palestinians,
whether it is the Palestinian Liberation Organisation or the Palestinian
Authority on the one hand, and Israel on the other, the steps
that need to be taken. That remains the view of the vast majority
of the international community, that that is the most effective
blueprint we have. It is getting to a position where we can get
that started and get the momentum going on. Just to pick up on
the previous question, although it is very frustrating and the
situation is undoubtedly grim on the ground, if we were able to
get some movement things could move quite quickly because there
is an enormous desire on the part of the whole international community,
including those countries in the region, the Arab states in the
region, to get going on this. There is a much greater desire now
on the part of the Arab governments in particular in the region
to lend their weight and their support to an international effort.
If we got some things going, and certainly movement and access
is one of the most important things to put in place, if we could
get that sort of progress then movement towards the final status
issues could come quite rapidly.
Hilary Benn: Could I just add
that one of the practical things we are doing, as you will be
aware, is we have been helping to fund the Negotiations Support
Unit (NSU). So that is support very practically to the PLO so
that when negotiations happen they are in a good position to have
thought through the detail of issues they hope to negotiate about.
That is something we have been doing for some time now and we
will continue to provide support to the NSU, and I did discuss
it with President Abbas during my meeting.
Q329 Hugh Bayley: I share the Government's
view about the difficulty of making progress. While Hamas say
they will not recognise the party they have to negotiate with,
find a solution with and will not renounce fully the use of violence,
in order to create conditions in which the Palestinian people
see that if their government and Hamas were to change their position
they would get a real benefit, a real peace dividend, would it
not be helpful if you had some offers or arrangements that would
provide benefits for the Palestinian people clearly spelt out
so it is clear what is lost if there is intransigence on the part
of Hamas in signing up to the principles and what would be gained
by the Palestinian people, indeed gained by Hamas, if they were
to make the historic compromise which the PLO eventually made?
Hilary Benn: I think the thing
that we can do as an international community is say, "If
you accept the principles then we are back in business in terms
of funding and supporting the PA..."
Q330 Hugh Bayley: Could you not go
further and say, "and that means that you will get X on access
and movement, you will get Y on settlements", which means
leaning on Israel so that you make clear offers?
Hilary Benn: I was making the
point there are things that the international community can say
are in our control. Undoubtedly we have created the TIM as an
alternative because we cannot provide support directly. If they
support the principles then we are back in business in working
with the Palestinian Authority as we did in the past. We have
said that very clearly and they know that to be the case. When
it comes to access and settlements and so on, that is not within
the control of the international community. Our position on the
siting of the Wall is absolutely clear; our position on settlements
is absolutely clear; our position on the revenues is clear; and
on movement and access. I discussed all of those issues when I
was there. We do not control that. What we can do is our best
to encourage the Government of Israel to move on those, but what
is needed in the end is for the people to sit down and do it for
themselves with the support of the international community. As
it has shown in the past, the international community will be
absolutely up for doing this but you need the missing ingredient
which is people who are prepared to sit and finally do the deal.
Q331 Chairman: Can I perhaps in summary
say what I think we asked you at the beginning. I accept what
has just been said and I, and I think most Members of the Committee,
understand the security issues that Israel faces and are sympathetic
to them. I do not think any of us wish to belittle them, but we
find it very difficult to see how you can talk about a two-state
solution when Gaza is effectively blockaded. I think the OCHA
representative described the division of the West Bank as like
the skin of a giraffe with all the particular layers and roadblocks
multiplying, even between two Palestinian communities, and a network
of settlements and all their protected outposts which, frankly,
make the functioning of the economy impossible. You say it is
not our job, Israel has to do its bit, we have made our position
clear, but the reality is you, the international community and
the EU, you and your Department, are having to find more money
to divert away from other areas and other poor people to compensate,
for what was clearly stated to us was the over-reaction of the
Israeli authorities in terms of the way they were disrupting the
economy. Surely it does give you some justification for saying
to the Israeli authorities, "We understand your security
situation, but what you are doing, especially in the West Bank
and in terms of blockading Gaza, as almost every independent analysis
says, goes a lot further than security and is effectively closing
down the economy and starts to look like punishment and we are
picking up the pieces", so we are giving comfort to a policy
which is making the Palestinian resentment worse and your ability
to develop aid and development almost impossible.
Hilary Benn: I would not accept
the argument with respect, Chairman, that we are giving comfort.
We are trying to do the right thing in the difficult circumstances
that we find ourselves in and, as I indicated earlier, we would
much rather be doing something else.
Q332 Chairman: I do not want to be
misinterpreted on that. What I would say is saying to the Israel
authorities, "In the long run what you are doing is not really
helping your own security"; I put it in those terms.
Hilary Benn: That is indeed exactly
the point that I made and the point, frankly, that politicians
in Israel are also reflecting upon. You only have to look around
you to see the problems that this is creating and the question
is how you get to the point where all of this paraphernalia of
security and closures and so on are no longer needed because no-one
is trying to kill anybody else. If you get to that point then
things can change. That will require negotiation and movement
and compromise, as I indicated earlier, but that is what will
bring this all to an end. The point I was making was the international
community cannot do it for the parties to the conflict. I know
some people say, "If we tried harder it could be solved",
but I do not believe that to be the case. You were not advancing
that argument but your question gives me the chance to make the
point that it is the parties that have got to do it and this cannot
come a moment too soon. I suppose I finish where I began: things
there are really, really desperate.
Q333 Chairman: That is a timely note
to finish on. It is not going to get better in this situation,
it can only get worse. Thank you very much.
Hilary Benn: Thank you very much
indeed.
Chairman: Thank you to your colleagues.
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