Formal minutes
Wednesday 23rd May 2007
Members present:
Mr Jack Straw, in the Chair
| Mr Paul Burstow
Ann Coffey
Philip Davies
Mr Greg Knight
Mark Lazarowicz
| Mrs Theresa May
Mr Richard Shepherd
Sir Nicholas Winterton
Mr Iain Wright
|
Strengthening the role of the backbencher and making better
use of non-legislative time
The Committee considered this matter.
[Adjourned till Wednesday 6th June at half past Nine o'clock.
Wednesday 6th June 2007
Members present:
Mr Jack Straw, in the Chair
|
Ms Dawn Butler
Ann Coffey
Philip Davies
Mr Greg Knight
Mark Lazarowicz
Mrs Theresa May
| Mr Adrian Sanders
Mr Richard Shepherd
Sir Peter Soulsby
Sir Nicholas Winterton
Mr Iain Wright
|
Strengthening the role of the backbencher and making better
use of non-legislative time
The Committee considered this matter.
[Adjourned till Wednesday 13th June at Ten o'clock.
Wednesday 13th June 2007
Members present:
Mr Jack Straw, in the Chair
|
Ann Coffey
Philip Davies
Mr Greg Knight
Mark Lazarowicz
| Mr Adrian Sanders
Mr Richard Shepherd
Sir Peter Soulsby
Mr Iain Wright
|
Strengthening the role of the backbencher and making better
use of non-legislative time
The Committee considered this matter.
Draft Report (Revitalising
the Chamber: the role of the back bench Member),
proposed by the Chairman, brought up and read.
Ordered,
That the Chairman's draft Report be read a second time, paragraph
by paragraph.
Summary read and postponed.
Preface read.
Question put, That the Preface stand part of the
Report.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 7
Ann Coffey
Philip Davies
Mr Greg Knight
Mark Lazarowicz
Mr Adrian Sanders
Sir Peter Soulsby
Mr Iain Wright
| | Noes, 1
Mr Richard Shepherd
|
Paragraph 1 read and agreed
to.
Paragraph 2 read, as follows:
'The House's practices and procedures continue to
evolve in response to social and political change. Fifty years
ago the pressures on Members of Parliament were less and they
has less secretarial and personal research support. Today they
enjoy much better administrative help. It is unsurprising then
that the role of a Member has evolved and changed over time. The
basic elements of the job remain the same but the balance between
them has altered. Some of the academic evidence suggests that
Members today are more active and independently minded than their
part-time predecessors. They welcome the challenge presented by
a more assertive, less deferential public. At the same time it
can be argued that the during the same period executive control
has over the business of the House has increased and the number
of opportunities for Members to act on their own initiative, independent
of their party, has declined. In parallel there has been a change
in the media's approach to its coverage of politics and the work
of the House in particular.'
Amendment proposed, in line 10, after 'House' to
insert 'as evidenced in the development of Standing Orders'.—(Mr
Richard Shepherd.)
Question put, That the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Mr Richard Shepherd
| | Noes, 7
Ann Coffey
Philip Davies
Mr Greg Knight
Mark Lazarowicz
Mr Adrian Sanders
Sir Peter Soulsby
Mr Iain Wright
|
Question put, That the paragraph stand part of the
Report.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 7
Ann Coffey
Philip Davies
Mr Greg Knight
Mark Lazarowicz
Mr Adrian Sanders
Sir Peter Soulsby
Mr Iain Wright
| | Noes, 1
Mr Richard Shepherd
|
Paragraph 3 read, as follows:
'Critics of the modern House of Commons sometimes
hark back to a lost "Golden Age" when governments were
held tightly in check by committed and independent-minded Members
far more able and energetic than those who sit on the green benches
today. They are wrong. As Michael Ryle, a former Commons clerk,
recently argued, "simple factual comparison with the 1950s
and early 1960s shows that Parliament—particularly the House
of Commons—plays a more active, independent and influential
role in Britain today than at any time for many years".'
Amendment proposed, in line 1, to leave out 'Critics
of the modern House of Commons sometimes hark back to a lost "Golden
Age" when governments were held tightly in check by committed
and independent-minded Members far more able and energetic than
those who sit on the green benches today. They are wrong.'.—(Mr
Richard Shepherd.)
Question put, That the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Mr Richard Shepherd
| | Noes, 7
Ann Coffey
Philip Davies
Mr Greg Knight
Mark Lazarowicz
Mr Adrian Sanders
Sir Peter Soulsby
Mr Iain Wright
|
Question put, That the paragraph stand part of the
Report.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 7
Ann Coffey
Philip Davies
Mr Greg Knight
Mark Lazarowicz
Mr Adrian Sanders
Sir Peter Soulsby
Mr Iain Wright
| | Noes, 1
Mr Richard Shepherd
|
Paragraph 4 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 5 read, as follows:
'The changes introduced by our predecessors have
helped to make the House of Commons more efficient. We hope that
some of our proposals, like those we made last year on the legislative
process, will also help to make it more effective. Peter Riddell,
Assistant Editor of the Times, said, "Parliament is in many
ways more effective today than it has ever been".[224]
Effectiveness is harder to assess than efficiency partly because
so much has changed and partly because Members have different
objectives. What seems more effective to one Member may seem retrograde
to another; government and opposition will have different views,
as will frontbenchers and backbenchers.'
Amendment proposed, in line 3, leave out 'Peter Riddell,
Assistant Editor of the Times, said, "Parliament is in many
ways more effective today than it has ever been".[225]
Effectiveness is harder to assess than efficiency partly because
so much has changed and partly because Members have different
objectives. What seems more effective to one Member may seem retrograde
to another; government and opposition will have different views,
as will frontbenchers and backbenchers.' .—(Mr Richard
Shepherd.)
Question put, That the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Mr Richard Shepherd
| | Noes, 7
Ann Coffey
Philip Davies
Mr Greg Knight
Mark Lazarowicz
Mr Adrian Sanders
Sir Peter Soulsby
Mr Iain Wright
|
Question put, That the paragraph stand part of the
Report.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 7
Ann Coffey
Philip Davies
Mr Greg Knight
Mark Lazarowicz
Mr Adrian Sanders
Sir Peter Soulsby
Mr Iain Wright
| | Noes, 1
Mr Richard Shepherd
|
Paragraphs 6 to 8 read and agreed to.
Resolved, That paragraphs
9 to 31 be moved to after paragraph 46.—(Mr Richard Shepherd.)
Paragraphs 9 to 31 (now paragraphs 24 to 46) read
and agreed to.
Paragraphs 32 to 46 (now paragraphs 9 to 23) and
47 to 58 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 59 read as follows:
'The Clerk highlighted the importance of finding
a regular slot for topical debates so that they can be taken into
account by the business mangers.[226]
We recommend that provision should be made in Standing Orders
for topical debates to be held on one day each week. Topical debates
would last for an hour and a half and be taken immediately after
questions and statements but before the main business of the day.
The debate should be a general debate
(see paragraph 85). Subjects for topical debates would be announced
by the Leader of the House following consultation with the Business
Managers. To allow these new topical debates to provide opportunities
for back bench Members, both sides of the House must accept some
restriction on the length of front bench speeches and we discuss
time limits later in this Report (see paragraph 95). As we have
already said, we do not envisage any of our proposals increasing
the overall time that the House sits.'
An Amendment made.
Amendment proposed, in line 8, to leave out 'consultation
with the Business Managers' and insert 'a ballot'.—(Mr
Adrian Sanders).
Question put, That the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 2
Mr Richard Shepherd
Mr Adrian Sanders
| | Noes, 6
Ann Coffey
Philip Davies
Mr Greg Knight
Mark Lazarowicz
Sir Peter Soulsby
Mr Iain Wright
|
Other Amendments made.
Question put, That the paragraph, as amended, stand
part of the Report.
The Committee divided.
Ayes, 6
Ann Coffey
Philip Davies
Mr Greg Knight
Mark Lazarowicz
Sir Peter Soulsby
Mr Iain Wright
| | Noes, 2
Mr Richard Shepherd
Mr Adrian Sanders
|
Paragraphs 60 to 84 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 85 read, amended and agreed to.
Paragraphs 86 to 100 read and agreed to.
Paragraphs 101 to 111 read.
Motion made, to leave out paragraphs 101 to 111 and
insert the following new paragraph:
'Arrangements
and Timing of Private and Public Business
Current Standing Order No. 14 of the House of Commons
states:
"(1) Save as provided in this order, government
business shall have precedence at every sitting.
(2) Twenty days shall be allotted in each session
for proceedings on opposition business, seventeen of which shall
be at the disposal of the Leader of the Opposition and three of
which shall be at the disposal of the leader of the second largest
opposition party; and matters selected on those days shall have
precedence over government business provided that…
…(4) Private Members' bills shall have precedence
over government business on thirteen Fridays in each session to
be appointed by the House."
It can be see from the above that Private Members
have no opportunity to initiate substantive motions on matters
of public business.'.—(Mr Richard Shepherd.)
Motion made, and Question put, That the paragraph
be read a second time.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 2
Mr Richard Shepherd
Mr Adrian Sanders
| | Noes, 6
Ann Coffey
Philip Davies
Mr Greg Knight
Mark Lazarowicz
Sir Peter Soulsby
Mr Iain Wright
|
Question put, That paragraphs 101 to 111 stand part of the Report.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 6
Ann Coffey
Philip Davies
Mr Greg Knight
Mark Lazarowicz
Sir Peter Soulsby
Mr Iain Wright
| | Noes, 2
Mr Richard Shepherd
Mr Adrian Sanders
|
Paragraphs 112 to 114 read.
Motion made, to leave out paragraphs 112 to 114 and
insert the following new paragraphs:
'The Clerk of the House said, "What back bench
Members cannot do currently is initiate debates on a substantive
motion which would enable them to test the opinion of the House
on a subject on their own initiative".[227]
He also said, "…such a reform
would be a significant strengthening of the role of a backbencher".[228]
The evolution of Standing Orders over time has confirmed
the almost total control that the Government has over the business
of the House. With the exception of the Private Members Bill's
procedure a backbencher has no opportunity to initiate a substantive
debate in the Chamber on a matter of their choosing. This was
not always so. Until 1994 a Private Member could initiate such
debates if successful in a ballot.
Private Members' Motions were taken on Fridays reserved
for private Members' business and given precedence on ten Fridays
and four half-days other than Fridays (usually Mondays until 7.00
pm). Friday sittings were divided between Private Members' Motions
and Private Members' Bills. Members entered a ballot for the slots
available for Private Members' Motions. The ballot for slots on
Fridays was held on such Wednesdays as were appointed by the House
and on such other days as were appointed by the House for the
four half-days. Three names were drawn on each occasion, although
it was rare for there to be more than one debate.
We believe there should be more opportunities to
initiate business by ways of private Members' Motions.
Accordingly we suggest a reversion to the position
of the pre 1994 Standing Orders whereby a ballot was held for
Private Members' Motions for four separate half-days on a day
other than Fridays. This would protect the existing arrangements
for Private Members' Bills whilst providing a genuine opportunity
to enhance and strengthen
Motion made, and Question put, That the paragraphs
be read a second time.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 1
Mr Richard Shepherd
| | Noes, 7
Ann Coffey
Philip Davies
Mr Greg Knight
Mark Lazarowicz
Mr Adrian Sanders
Sir Peter Soulsby
Mr Iain Wright
|
Question put, That paragraphs 112 to 114 stand part
of the Report.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 7
Ann Coffey
Philip Davies
Mr Greg Knight
Mark Lazarowicz
Mr Adrian Sanders
Sir Peter Soulsby
Mr Iain Wright
| | Noes, 1
Mr Richard Shepherd
|
Paragraphs 115 to 122 read and agreed to.
Paragraph 123 read, as follows:
'In using programming there is a potential tension
between facilitating business and protecting the rights of opposition
parties. We recommend the operation of programming is kept
under review.'
Amendment proposed, in line 3, at the end to insert
'and that programming of the Report stage of Bills be discouraged.'.—(Mr
Richard Shepherd.)
Question put, That the Amendment be made.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 4
Philip Davies
Mr Greg Knight
Mr Adrian Sanders
Mr Richard Shepherd
| | Noes, 4
Ann Coffey
Mark Lazarowicz
Sir Peter Soulsby
Mr Iain Wright
|
Whereupon the Chairman declared himself with the Noes.
Question put, That the paragraph stand part of the
Report.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 4
Ann Coffey
Mark Lazarowicz
Sir Peter Soulsby
Mr Iain Wright
| | Noes, 4
Philip Davies
Mr Greg Knight
Mr Adrian Sanders
Mr Richard Shepherd
|
Whereupon the Chairman declared himself with the Ayes.
Paragraphs 124 to 131 read and agreed to.
Summary read again.
Question proposed, That the Summary stand part of
the Report.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 7
Ann Coffey
Philip Davies
Mr Greg Knight
Mark Lazarowicz
Mr Adrian Sanders
Sir Peter Soulsby
Mr Iain Wright
| | Noes, 1
Mr Richard Shepherd
|
Motion made, and Question put, That the Report, as amended, be
the First Report of the Committee to the House.
The Committee divided.
|
Ayes, 7
Ann Coffey
Philip Davies
Mr Greg Knight
Mark Lazarowicz
Mr Adrian Sanders
Sir Peter Soulsby
Mr Iain Wright
| | Noes, 1
Mr Richard Shepherd
|
Ordered, That the Chairman do make the Report to the House.
Ordered,
That embargoed copies of the Report be made available, in accordance
with the provisions of Standing Order No. 134.
Several papers were ordered to be appended to the
Minutes of Evidence.
Ordered, That
the Appendices to the Minutes of Evidence taken before the Committee
be reported to the House.
A paper was ordered to be reported to the House.
[Adjourned to a day and time to be fixed by the Chairman.
224 Q 10 Back
225
Q 10 Back
226
Ev 104 Back
227
Ev 100 Back
228
Ev 100 Back
| 
