Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100-113)
CABINET OFFICE
AND OFFICE
OF GOVERNMENT
COMMERCE
27 NOVEMBER 2006
Q100 Chairman: Sir John, you are
very familiar with the Major Projects Report in defence. Referring
back to Mr. Mitchell's question, do you think that we should have
an equivalent for IT projects, with all of them listed in a big
NAO Report, so that we can compare what is going on and have a
hearing here? After all, IT is arguably as important as or more
important than major projects in the defence field.
Mr. Oughton: Were you directing
that at me?
Chairman: I was directing it at
Sir John.
Sir John Bourn: The difficulty
would be that IT is a component of projects and programmes; nearly
all programmes have an IT component. To pick out the ones that
are especially worrying would be a difficult task.
Q101 Mr. Bacon: Because they are
all worrying?
Sir John Bourn: Because then you
would have several hundred. The thing about major defence projects
is that they are all with one Department, one Secretary of State
and one Accounting Officer, and that provides a focus. Mr. Watmore
and Mr. Oughton might have views on that, and I shall be happy
to discuss it with them further.
Q102 Chairman: You have the e-Government
Unit's Annual Report. Could that not develop into a credible document?
Mr. Watmore: It might well develop
in some way in that direction, but I have two or three comments.
First, literally hundreds of projects across Government involve
IT. If such a document were to be prepared, it would be massive
and, at that level, completely meaningless to the public. We would
have to be careful about what the selection criteria would be.
Chairman: That is why I said major projects.
Mr. Watmore: Secondly, as Sir
John has said, pretty much every big mission-critical project
has an IT component, so the focus should come from there rather
than from an IT angle. Thirdly, according to our report, we intend
to publish an annual report setting out the progress that we are
making towards the strategy that we published a year ago. As that
report develops over the years, you should be able to see the
impact of the things that we announced a year ago. It will tend
to start off with—I hesitate to use the word—enabling
projects, and come on, over time, to delivered projects.
Q103 Chairman: Do you want to make
a last remark on that or any other subject?
Mr. Oughton: No. I think that
we should look, with Sir John, at the possibilities. Clearly,
it will be trickier to handle something that is Government-wide
rather than Department-specific.
Chairman: Mr. Bacon has a last question.
Q104 Mr. Bacon: Could you send us
a list of the 91 mission-critical projects?
Mr. Oughton: I shall send you
a note, if I may.[2]
Q105 Mr. Bacon: What I would like
is an answer to the question. Will you send us a list of the 91
mission-critical projects?
Mr. Oughton: When you asked me
that question in November 2004—
Q106 Mr. Bacon: Actually, I did not.
I asked you about the 3%, which went up to 4%, that were in the
red. That certainly was not all 91—at least I hope it was
not—but a smaller subset. I am talking about the 91. Can
we have a list of the 91?
Mr. Oughton: I should like to
take that question away, and give you the most helpful response
that I can.
Q107 Mr. Bacon: This is the problem,
Mr. Oughton. As you know, because I was waving this document about
the other day at the seminar at which you and our esteemed Chairman
and the Chief Secretary spoke, we have here a kind of institutional
reluctance to be candid and to explain. We are not talking about
something minor or unimportant. We are talking about the 91 projects
that are, in your judgment, most critical, yet you are not prepared
to tell us what they are.
When I held this document up at the seminar
the other day, I could see the Chief Secretary craning to see
what it was. It is from the (USA's) Office of Management and Budget.
All the details are public. At that hearing, the Chief Secretary,
not you, asked how often it is updated. I checked afterwards and
found that it is updated every quarter. The President of the United
States sometimes raises these at cabinet meetings. Whether they
concern the Environmental Protection Agency, the Department of
Justice, the Department of Veterans Affairs, NASA or the Office
of Management and Budget itself, one can see where their traffic
lights are, and on what. As you know, because you were in Washington
in April, just before we were there in May, the Department of
Justice displays its traffic lights in its foyer for every employee
to see.
Given the enormous record of failure across
Governments of both persuasions and over decades, I do not understand
why you do not try something new—why you do not believe
that the power of transparency can bring to the party something
that would be useful for you in delivering better results.
Mr. Oughton: Mr. Bacon, I have
mentioned during this afternoon's session a number of new ideas
that we are contemplating introducing in relation to gateways,
reporting and involvement of Ministers, which I hope will start
to move that forward.
Q108 Mr. Bacon: What about transparency?
Mr. Oughton: The point about the
document that you have, which we both discussed with the Office
of Management and Budget on our respective visits, is that it
gives a measurable assessment against performance in delivery
of Government programmes—
Mr. Bacon: Yes, but as Mr. Watmore
said, if it is not about performance, it is doomed to failure.
Chairman: Mr. Bacon, let him answer.
Mr. Oughton: The advice that I
provide in my quarterly reports to the Prime Minister is based
on the evidence from Departments, but at the end of the day, it
is judgment and advice that I provide to the Prime Minister. It
is a different quality of information. However, I am trying to
be helpful. Rather than give you an answer across the table, which
you may find unsatisfactory, I should like to take the question
away, consider it and give you the most helpful answer that I
can—both on the listing of the projects and on what we might
say about them.
Mr. Bacon: Thank you.
Q109 Chairman: Because generally
you support and believe in the power of transparency, Mr. Oughton?
Mr. Oughton: Yes, I do. I have
seen how organisations and individuals react to peer pressure
and to the competitive exposure of performance. I understand that
point, but I cannot give you an answer to that question across
the table and without consideration.
Q110 Chairman: Leaving aside the
question of transparency for the public and for Parliament, Mr.
Watmore, presumably when Mr. Oughton and other civil service colleagues
see the Prime Minister on this and related issues, you brief him?
Mr. Watmore: Usually. It depends
on the subject.
Q111 Chairman: So, just as the President
has the Office of Management and Budget, which will hand a document
to him so that he can give Departments a hard time, why do not
you undertake a similar exercise with the Prime Minister?
Mr. Watmore: I think Mr. Oughton
has given an answer to the general question. I went to see Karen
Evans, my then counterpart in the United States, to talk about
that. In my view we are doing all the things that they have done,
with one exception, which is the publication of the equivalent
of that amber, green, red list.
Q112 Chairman: It is not quite clear
to me why there is that one exception. You are presumably not
closing your minds to it.
Mr. Watmore: I do not think that
any of us close our mind to anything on that front. We are building
a CIO council, like they have done; we are joining up on our shared
services programmes, like they have done; and we are rigorously
inspecting our projects and programmes, like they have done. Indeed,
they are looking to several things that we have done, which they
regard as positive learning experiences. Communication is taking
place throughout the world on that sort of stuff.
Q113 Chairman: Good. That concludes
our hearing, Mr. Watmore and Mr. Oughton. I hope that you will
tell the Cabinet Secretary that you had a useful session this
afternoon, and that the PAC, on occasion, is prepared to be positive
and to learn from projects that go well and not just to be critical
all the time. Will you tell him that from us?
Mr. Oughton: Of course.
Mr. Watmore: I will certainly
do that, and thank you for the opportunity to discuss successful
projects.
Chairman: Thank you very much.
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