Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60-79)
JOBCENTRE PLUS
AND DEPARTMENT
FOR WORK
AND PENSIONS
Q60 Mr Bacon: If you could send us
a note about that too, that would be really helpful. In those
circumstances out of that universe of people where you could apply
sanctions, not the total caseload, it is broken down by category—lone
parent, incapacity benefit—how often are sanctions actually
applied.[2]
Ms Strathie: Yes, we will do that.
Q61 Mr Bacon: Finally I have a question
about IT. On page 25 it says: "IT systems are fundamental
to Personal Advisers' work, but Advisers have some concerns ...
Future improvements could include: being able to cut and paste
information from one screen to another". I remember this
coming up some years ago. Your computer supplier for Jobcentre
Plus is EDS, is that right? Mr Owen is nodding.
Ms Strathie: Yes, that is right.
Q62 Mr Bacon: We happen to know that
EDS is making a profit margin of 30% on its work with DWP. You
might have thought that for a 30% profit margin you could get
cut and paste thrown in, would you not? Why is this still coming
up after we first heard about this problem several years ago?
Ms Strathie: We are going through
a technology refresh at the moment which primarily will allow
our advisers to open several windows at the same time in a much
more user friendly manner. That is probably the briefest way of
answering your question.
Q63 Mr Bacon: Does it include cut
and paste?[3]
Ms Strathie: I do not really understand
it.
Chairman: Send us a note on that
point.
Q64 Mr Mitchell: Figure 1 on page
6, different categories of advisers and different programmes,
are they all basically doing the same job? It is just that Jobseeker's
Allowance people, for instance, specialised in that area mainly
advising young people, but the basic job is still finding them
permanent work. It is just that they specialise in that category
of claimant.
Ms Strathie: Yes. The basic job
is the same approach. The range of help is different. If you are
delivering New Deal for 18-24 year-olds it will be a very much
longer and more intensive process, but the elements of the job
are the same. You need a different range of knowledge. If you
are dealing with lone parents you have to understand the local
infrastructure in childcare, for example.
Q65 Mr Mitchell: A financial assessor
checking claims can interrupt the work of the advisers. Why is
that? Why is the same adviser not doing both?
Ms Strathie: The financial assessor
role was introduced when we brought in the new model to try and
speed up handling for the customer. We are trying to give advice
to the customer on the information they gave the contact centre
and on the evidence they have been asked to bring the likelihood
of their benefit proceeding. Quite often it is interrupted because
customers still fail to bring the evidence required for the interview.
The NAO audit of Advisers showed the irritation of Personal Advisers
of how many times they are interrupted by telephone calls and
others.
Q66 Mr Mitchell: The target for people
to get back into work must differ by region or the achievements
must differ by region. The figures we have are overall figures.
Can you give us some figures by regions? In areas of high unemployment
it must be more difficult to get work for people?
Ms Strathie: We certainly measure
the outcomes for each of the English regions and Scotland and
Wales. We can certainly tell you the targets and delivery by regions
as well as the employment and unemployment rate.
Q67 Mr Mitchell: Can we have them
by regions?
Ms Strathie: Shall we write to
you with those if you want us to go through each of the regions?[4]
Chairman: Yes, please.
Q68 Mr Mitchell: Do immigrants and
East European arrivals—Poles, for instance—do they
use the service?
Ms Strathie: We see very few migrants
in terms of benefit customers.
Q69 Mr Mitchell: Why is that? Do
they find their own jobs?
Ms Strathie: Most of them come
over here to work and are in work. We do see these customers in
relation to their applications for National Insurance numbers
but that is something else.
Q70 Mr Mitchell: They can find jobs
without your service!
Ms Strathie: Yes, and I am very
happy that they do. We exist to help those who most need help.
Q71 Mr Mitchell: The proportion of
no shows at interviews is higher among claimants.
Ms White: Do you mean incapacity
benefit claimants?
Q72 Mr Mitchell: Yes.
Ms White: There are certain types
of claimants for whom the no show rate is higher. Is that your
question?
Q73 Mr Mitchell: Yes. Why is that?
Is that incapacity people find more difficulty in showing up?
Ms White: Yes.
Q74 Mr Mitchell: It also says that
a proportion decide not to pursue a claim. Is that they do not
pursue their desire for a job or they do not pursue a claim for
benefit?
Ms Strathie: Sometimes when we
invite people for an interview they decide that they no longer
wish to claim; that is the reality. Some people who fail to turn
up for a Personal Adviser interview do not turn up again or let
us know that they no longer wish to claim.
Q75 Mr Mitchell: Mr Bacon asked about
the sanctions which seem to operate in a fairly small proportion
of cases. At whose discretion is that? Is that the officer or
is that a departmental local decision?
Ms Strathie: It is described in
the regulations what the requirement is for the customers. If
we write to a customer and ask them to attend for a work focused
interview and they fail to attend, then we will write to them
again and offer another interview in 14 days. If they fail to
attend again then we will take action to consider what sanction
needs to be applied. The framework that we are required to work
under makes it clear that we do not just stop somebody's money
when they fail to attend one interview.
Q76 Mr Mitchell: You are going to
supply us with the figures Mr Bacon asked for by category of claim.
Ms Strathie: Yes.
Q77 Mr Mitchell: I am an admirer
of the service. I think it works well in Grimsby but I fear for
your future because you have Gershon efficiency targets, you are
going to have to reduce staffing numbers and you are going to
have to take on new and more difficult categories that have to
be helped back into work because of the Government programme.
Are you going to be able to cope? If you are going to be reducing
staffing numbers it is going to reduce the efficiency of the back-up
service for the officers who are actually doing the employment
search, is it not?
Ms Strathie: If you have a reduced
budget, rising costs and a reduced headcount then you have to
be smart about how you do things.
Q78 Mr Mitchell: You have either
got to fiddle the figures or cut down the amount of time at the
interview phase that people are dealing with. It is a bit unrealistic
at the time when these people are doing such good work to assume
that you can increase the numbers that they have to see and cut
down the numbers backing them up.
Ms Strathie: I am very grateful
that you are an admirer of the service because we are very proud
of our Personal Advisers and the job they do and the difference
that they make. My challenge as Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus
is to be able to balance all of those challenges. That is why
it is important that we have our Advisers doing the right thing
and we have the right people doing the right things: adviser support,
free up time so the advisers can do more, better management focused
on the advisers rather than the whole band with running a big
Jobcentre Plus office and making sure they get the right tools
to do the job. It has been an enormous challenge to transform
this business and reduce by 15,000 people but we have achieved
it and we will carry on with that challenge.
Q79 Mr Mitchell: You have studied
the system in America as it developed, particularly I see in the
Clinton reforms. Is their system more coercive than ours? What
is the biggest difference between them?
Ms White: It is more coercive
but it is also that the cultural differences are so huge. The
welfare system in the States is essentially only supporting lone
parents and there is such a strong culture in which women go back
to work within three months of having their child—this is
certainly the rates for married women—with very little maternity
leave. There is a culture and an expectation that women principally
who are also on welfare ought to go back to work when their children
are tiny. The Wisconsin experiment, for example, was very successful.
There are time limited benefits you can have. You have a five-year
limit over your life when you are allowed to claim welfare and
once your youngest child hits three months old you are expected
to return to work and get the support that is around. That compares
with where we are with income support where, although we do work
focused interviews, single parents are not required to move on
to Jobseeker's Allowance until their youngest child is 16. Internationally
we are at different ends of the spectrum.
Mr Mitchell: It is better to be
British.
2 Ev 10-11 Back
3
Note by witness: There is already in place a facility
to cut and paste from one LMS screen to another and between IT
applications. As part of our aim to continuously improve our IT
we have commissioned work which allows the push and pull of certain
data across IT systems. This reduces further the necessity for
double keying. Where data cannot be replicated in either of these
ways it is generally due to security accreditation issues but
we continue to monitor and explore any areas where a duplication
of input can be avoided. Back
4
Ev 11 Back
| 
