Examination of Witnesses (Questions 160-179)
DEPARTMENT OF
HEALTH, PROFESSOR
PETER HUTTON
AND DR
ANTHONY NOWLAN
26 JUNE 2006
Q160 Mr Bacon: Nobody seems to know
the answer to this question. You are doing a project of the scale
described in paragraph 1.8 "The scope, vision, scale and
complexity of the Programme is wider and more extensive than any
ongoing or planned healthcare IT development programme in the
world" and it goes on "...the programme is developing
a system not being attempted elsewhere on this scale" and
you are telling me that nobody, not Mr Shapcott, nobody, not you
Sir Ian, not you Mr Jeavons, appears to have at his fingertips
a figure of the cost benefit analysis.
Mr Jeavons: I was just going to
try to give you some numbers, if that is okay?
Q161 Mr Bacon: Please.
Mr Jeavons: On the PACS contract
the costs are £1.3 billion for the total cost of the contract.
The cash releasing benefits which are identified in the business
case are £682 million. So the difference is what are called
non-cash-releasing benefits and those are the ones where you need
both to measure and then place a value on those in order to demonstrate
overall value for money.
Q162 Mr Bacon: What about the other
main parts of the programme? PACS is the picture archiving, is
it not?
Mr Jeavons: Yes, the picture archiving.
Q163 Mr Bacon: When did that become
part of the national programme? Was it at the outset?
Mr Jeavons: It was always identified
in the strategy.
Q164 Mr Bacon: Was it always part
of the national programme from the outset?
Mr Granger: Yes.
Mr Jeavons: Yes, it was set out
in Delivering 21st Century IT Support to the NHS.
Q165 Mr Bacon: It was set out in that,
was it?
Mr Jeavons: It was indeed.
Mr Granger: You will find it at
appendix four.
Q166 Mr Bacon: What was the risk
score in Delivering 21st Century IT Support to the NHS
for this programme? Perhaps you know the answer to that Sir Ian.
You do not?
Mr Granger: It is high.
Q167 Mr Bacon: What was it?
Mr Granger: I do not remember
the exact number, but it was high.
Q168 Mr Bacon: It was high?
Mr Granger: Yes.
Q169 Mr Bacon: As it happens I have a
copy of Delivering 21st Century IT Support to the NHS here.
It says that the Office of Government Commerce has introduced
a system of Gateway Reviews for major public sector projects.
You will be familiar with this. It says that the first step is
for the senior responsible owner to use the project profile model
to determine the overall level of risk for a given project, that
an assessment of the strategic programme against the PMDU project
guidance for ensuring successful delivery has been undertaken.
By the way, while we are on the subject of senior responsible
owners, I take it Sir Ian that you are now a senior responsible
owner with Mr Granger. Is that right?
Sir Ian Carruthers: Yes, for the
moment.
Q170 Mr Bacon: How many senior responsible
owners have there been altogether?
Sir Ian Carruthers: First of all,
as the Report says, we started off with one, Sir John Pattison.
Then there was a change where Mr Granger took on the senior responsibility
when Sir John retired.
Q171 Mr Bacon: That is two.
Sir Ian Carruthers: He was the
senior responsible owner for the programme and at that time there
was an appointment of senior responsible owner accountable to
the Chief Medical Officer.
Q172 Mr Bacon: That was Aidan Halligan.
That is three.
Sir Ian Carruthers: Then we moved
on and Dr Halligan left and Mr Burns—
Q173 Mr Bacon: How long was Dr Halligan
there?
Sir Ian Carruthers: I think it
says in the Report. I think it was about a year.
Q174 Mr Bacon: We shall look that
up later. I think it was about six months. The fourth one was...?
Sir Ian Carruthers: Then the chief
executive of Trent Strategic Health Authority, Alan Burns came
to do that.
Q175 Mr Bacon: Then there was Mr
John Bacon—no relation. Was he senior responsible owner?
He told me he was at the last hearing.
Sir Ian Carruthers: No, he was
to do the benefits realisation. John Bacon, then—I am just
looking up the date now—
Q176 Mr Bacon: And then yourself,
so there were actually six altogether, six senior responsible
owners.
Sir Ian Carruthers: Absolutely.
Q177 Mr Bacon: In how many years?
Sir Ian Carruthers: I think the
Report says since 2004.
Q178 Mr Bacon: Could somebody explain
to me why, in the copy I have here of Delivering 21st Century
IT Support to the NHS, the project profile in appendix three
has been removed? There are two versions: one with appendix three
and one without. The one with says that the score is 53. Why was
appendix three with the actual project profile model in it removed
from Delivering 21st Century IT Support to the NHS?
Sir Ian Carruthers: We shall do
a note.[13]
Q179 Mr Bacon: Do not worry. I shall
give them both to the Clerk and then he can use them as evidence.
I need to move on. Professor Hutton, I know that you have had
some concerns about this, as has Dr Nowlan. You already said that
you were concerned whether the programme was or was not on schedule
to deliver the core objectives. Dr Nowlan, do you have a similar
concern?
Dr Nowlan: Absolutely.
13 Note by witness: Delivering 21st Century IT Support
for the NHS has three appendices and there is no record of
any changes since its publication in June 2002. It is usual for
draft reports to be changed before publication and the Member
may have obtained a copy of an early draft. Such versions are
not authoritative. Back
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