Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100-119)
HM TREASURY &
PARTNERSHIPS UK
20 JUNE 2007
Q100 Mr Bacon: And what is it?
Mr Pocklington: I do not have—
Q101 Mr Bacon: I have been trying
for several years to get to the bottom of how big is PFI, and
that is really what lies behind my question, Mr Pocklington, I
am trying to get to the bottom of the question how big is PFI,
and it seems to be quite difficult to get an accurate answer.
I have been told by various people, including by the National
Audit Office, answers such as, "Well, really they do not
know," which is I presume why it was, and it was referred
to, Mr Kingman, in your answer to my question 150, that there
has been a "detailed and resource-intensive exercise covering
more than 500 projects that have been signed over 15 years",
you make it sound like it was big of you to do this resource-intensive
exercise to find out how much of my and others' constituents'
money you are spending. So perhaps the NAO when they told me casually
that they were not actually sure that you knew were correct, but
you must have some notion of what is the likely amount of debt
to arise therefrom going forward?
Mr Pocklington: The total stock
of PFI projects has a capital value of approximately—
Q102 Mr Bacon: We have been through
that. £54.55 billion, although if you look on your website—and
I am going to come on to your website in a minute—it is
actually now £58.067 when I printed that off this afternoon,
so it has gone up by about £4 billion since you sent your
note in. On page F16 the note says it is £54.55 billion in
the Report we published on 15 May but presumably the website is
accurate, is it?
Mr Pocklington: The Treasury website
contains our best available information on the capital funding—
Q103 Mr Bacon: Hang on, when you
say Treasury website, I am talking about the Partnerships UK website
where it gives present PFI projects data. Is that what you are
referring to as well, is it?
Mr Pocklington: There are different
databases. What I am referring to is the Treasury website which
contains all PFI projects and is the basis of the evidence that
Mr Kingman sent to this Committee.
Q104 Mr Bacon: Partnerships UK comes
under the Treasury, does it not? Yes? No?
Mr Pocklington: Partnerships UK—
Mr Stewart: It is a joint venture
project. The Treasury has a 49% stake in Partnerships UK so it
is not—
Q105 Mr Bacon: Nonetheless, your
number is £58.067 billion. Presumably it is more up-to-date,
it includes the more recently signed deals?
Mr Stewart: There are some differences
now between our database and the Treasury database because ours
contains some historic projects which the Treasury recently took
off their database.
Q106 Mr Bacon: I want to come on
to the website but actually, Mr Pocklington, you were apparently
trying—I am not sure you were trying to, that is unfair—or
you were missing my point which is that I am not after the capital
value (we have already discussed capital value, that was in my
first question) my question is this bit underneath about PFI signed
deals recording capital values and not the debt amount likely
to arise therefrom. My first question was what is the debt amount
likely to arise therefrom and I have been waiting for an answer
for the last few minutes.
Mr Pocklington: The projected
unitary charge payment for 2007-08 is £7.3 billion.
Q107 Mr Bacon: And over the life,
because we know in the case of each PFI project how long it is
supposed to last because we have a term of it, if you add them
all up, what is the likely amount of debt to arise therefrom?
Mr Pocklington: Table C19 from
the Budget document includes our latest estimate for the years
2006-07 to 2033-32 on an annual basis.
Q108 Mr Bacon: If you add it all
up what do you get?
Mr Pocklington: We have not published
a number and I am afraid I am not able to add them up here.
Q109 Mr Bacon: Well, it is £7
billion this year, roughly £7 billion next year.
Mr Pocklington: It is £7.8
million next year, £8.2 million, £8.5 million—
Q110 Mr Bacon: Just in the next four
or five years it is £7 or £8 billion a year so for the
next five years it is £40 billion; is that right?
Mr Pocklington: More or less,
approximately.
Q111 Mr Bacon: Mr Pocklington, can
you just give me, because funnily enough I have got a calculator,
the numbers please?
Mr Pocklington: From 2007-08?
Q112 Mr Bacon: Yes, read them out.
I will put them straight into my calculator and this will save
us time.
Mr Pocklington: 7.3, 7.8, 8.2,
8.5, 8.6, 8.7, 8.8.
Q113 Mr Bacon: I am already at £57
billion, by the way! Keep going.
Mr Pocklington: 8.8, 8.8, 8.9,
8.2, 5.8, 5.8.
Mr Bacon: Whoops!
Chairman: A few billion either way will
not matter.
Q114 Mr Bacon: Keep going.
Mr Pocklington: 5.9, 5.5, 5.4,
5.4, 5.4, 5.2, 5.0, 4.8.[3]—
Chairman: All right.
Q115 Mr Bacon: No, I want the whole
lot, keep going.
Mr Pocklington: 4.5, 4.2, 3.8,
3.4.
Q116 Mr Bacon: That is the whole
lot, is it?
Mr Pocklington: Yes.
Q117 Mr Bacon: Going up to which
year?
Mr Pocklington: 2031-32.
Q118 Mr Bacon: And is that the maximum
extent to which there are known contracts, so to speak?
Mr Pocklington: That is the maximum
that we collect through our biannual process of collecting data.
Q119 Mr Bacon: How much further beyond
that does it actually go?
Mr Pocklington: It will depend
on the length of contracts, that will include the vast majority
of contracts.
3 Note by witness: The figures quoted here
were taken from table C19 of the 2007 Budget document. HM Treasury
provided the Committee with a copy of this table in a follow up
note to this hearing (Ev 13 & 15). Back
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