Examination of Witnesses (Questions 410-419)
PROFESSOR SIR
KEITH O'NIONS
AND MR
JOHN NEILSON
13 DECEMBER 2006
Chairman: Could I welcome our third group
of witnesses this morning and apologise sincerely to Sir Keith
O'Nions, the Director General of Science and Innovation, and John
Nielson, Director of Research at OSI, for overrunning on the previous
session. You will appreciate the importance of NIMR and we wanted
to complete that questioning. I will ask my colleague Dr Harris
if he will start.
Q410 Dr Harris: Good morning. The RIPSS
monitoring exercise has highlighted serious concerns about the
sustainability of much of the Research Council Institute sector.
Do you accept the picture they describe as to the state of health
of research council institutes in general?
Professor Sir Keith O'Nions: Yes,
I have no reason to disagree with their findings. It is certainly
not all Research Council Institutes but there are some Research
Council Institutes where we are concerned about sustainability.
Q411 Dr Harris: I think they said
that one-third of them were in some difficulty. Is that right?
Professor Sir Keith O'Nions: That
is one third of all the public sector research establishments
which were summarised.
Q412 Dr Harris: That is right.
Professor Sir Keith O'Nions: Which
is about 40.
Q413 Dr Harris: Including some research—
Professor Sir Keith O'Nions: Research
Councils.
Q414 Dr Harris: And obviously we
have taken evidence from some. How much of this is in issue? How
much is the health of Research Council Institutes that research
councils want to continue to have—so they have made that
decision—an issue for RCUK or OSI?
Professor Sir Keith O'Nions: It
is crucial. In terms of sustainability of that part of our research
sector, it is as crucial as is the sustainability of research
in our universities.
Q415 Dr Harris: What responsibility
do you take for changing the attitude of concern that there is
surrounding the viability and future of these Institutes.
Professor Sir Keith O'Nions: I
think there are two aspects to that. There are those Institutes
that belong to Research Councils that are supported and financed
through OSI and the DTI, and clearly we have a direct interest
in those through the Research Councils. More widely than that,
the RIPSS report which surveys all of the PSREs, of which one
complete report has been made since 2004, and another one is ongoing,
we take the role of making available the indicators of the extent
to which they are sustainable to the departments that own those
Institutes. So we have a more direct involvement with those we
finance and we make information available to those departments
that are responsible for others, such as defence.
Q416 Dr Harris: To deal with the
first group, which is what we really want to talk to you about
today, these Research Institutes need long-termism.
Professor Sir Keith O'Nions: Yes.
Q417 Dr Harris: And it is the OSI
that has a big role in saying what the Government feels and what,
as far as governments can, the Government—and I understand
that science is long term in this Government: they say it is—are
going to put their funding towards in terms of the strategy for
science. Do you think the OSI is doing enough to make it clear
to Institutes and Research Councils and government departments,
co-opted government departments, that these are the areas that
there is going to be a long-term commitment for, to keep the critical
mass in those areas and be assured that we will continue to invest
in those areas because Britain's needs are such?
Professor Sir Keith O'Nions: I
agree with all those points. To come to your question, of those
Institutes that are more or less solely funded by our Research
Councils, let me take the British Antarctic Survey. That is in
a relatively straightforward category where we are concerned about
its sustainability. We have had discussions with the Foreign Office
on that. That is in one sort of category. If we turn to some of
the BBSRC Institutes, owned by BBSRC but have quite a large investment
from Defra, for example, then there is a question of whether the
spirit of RIPSS is being fully maintained in some of those. That
is an issue that we have been in discussion about.
Q418 Dr Harris: Do you accept, for
example, that Defra having a moratorium on new funding of projects
it is commissioning from Research Council Institutes has a direct
impact on redundancies in some of those places and on the viability?
Professor Sir Keith O'Nions: A
moratorium is unhelpful at the best. I think an Institute needs
a planning horizon extending for three to five years. It is fully
understandable that priorities in research change within a government
department—I think we accept that—but we do need clear
indicators of what the requirements may be of an Institute over
a period of three to five years because there may well be knock-on
effects of reprioritisation and we need to be able to plan for
them carefully.
Q419 Dr Harris: It is understandable,
in a sense, from a financial point of view at Defra because of
the rural payments agency problem—and that, do you accept,
had a direct knock-on effect on the work of Research Council Institutes
relying on funding in year?
Professor Sir Keith O'Nions: Defra's
priorities for its research budgets are a matter for Defra. We
know that the climate has a much larger emphasis now than it did
in the past.
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