Examination of Witnesses (Questions 580
- 599)
TUESDAY 6 MARCH 2007
DFES
Q580 Mr Hoyle: Of course.
Bill Rammell: When we get into
a debate about so-called Mickey Mouse degrees, which is the accusation
that is always put forward, I think it is important to base this
debate on the evidence. One of the degree programmes that constantly
gets it in the neck is media studies. If you look at the evidence
in terms of career outcomes and employability, it has a very good
track record. Part of the challenge at the higher education level
is to get across that very strong message about the enhanced graduate
earnings premium that you get if you undertake a science and technology
subject. Also, to a significant extent, if you are expecting to
shape this debate by the time someone is 20 or 21 and coming to
the end of their degree programme, in a sense you have lost the
argument. The influence has to be much earlier in the system.
It is intervention at the age of 13, 14 or 15. In terms of vocational
subjects say, law or medicine all the evidence is the decision
is taken at about the age of 12 or 13 by the young person and
therefore the intervention for whatever discipline has to be much
earlier.
Mr Hoyle: The problem there is it is
usually the parents that say, "We are going into a litigious
society so therefore you ought to make plenty of money and become
a lawyer, not get your hands dirty." Look at that wealthy
man over there.
Judy Mallaber: I am tempted to say we
should ask the visitors to this Committee for their answers to
the last set of questions because they are the people who will
either have made the decision or be going to make a decision in
terms of what they will go into with their careers. I presume
you do not want to do that?
Chairman: I would say that I think engineering
is a very exciting profession. I wish I had done it myself. It
is my great regret.
Q581 Judy Mallaber: We are told that
a lot of the skills that are lacking for new entrants into manufacturing
are not skills of knowledge or whatever; they are what can be
called employability skills: commercial awareness, teamwork, practical
experience. Are employers right to be concerned about that and
are those kinds of skills ones that could be taught outside the
workplace, or do you have to wait until people have gone to work
before they learn about that practical experience, working together
et cetera?
Bill Rammell: Right throughout
the educational system there is a genuine concern about team working,
oral communication skills, customer service skills. We do need
to ensure that those are embedded right throughout the system.
A shift towards specialised diplomas, bringing about a blend between
theoretical and practical learning, will certainly help in that
regard. Moving on to the higher educational level, the introduction
of initiatives such as Foundation Degrees which are developed
alongside employers with their needs very much in mind often the
programmes will be a bespoke qualification for a particular organisation
looking at its particular circumstances can help. Also at the
higher education level we have asked the Higher Education Academy
to look at improving the way employability skills are acquired
by graduates and to seek to address those through the subject
networks. The Sector Skills Council voice influencing the qualifications
right down the qualifications chain and up to higher education
is crucial. Again at the higher education level, initiatives like
the National Council for Work Experience, promoting work experience
for higher education learners, is crucially important. I sometimes
think there appears to be a critique that comes forward that it
is a bad thing for students to be working whilst they are studying.
In my experience, as long as that is done within limited proportions
say, up to 15 hours a week in terms of whilst you are studying
developing some of those work related skills, it can be a positive
benefit.
Q582 Judy Mallaber: Are you satisfied
with the way in which work experience in schools is going at the
moment? From those I talk to and those I have had in my office
doing work experience, it has been quite a mixed picture in terms
of whether they do learn anything very much or how those work
experience programmes are structured. Is that an area that the
department is looking at and are you satisfied with progress?
It is often an add-on to somebody's work rather than being regarded
as an important part of a teacher's job within the school.
Bill Rammell: It is a key area.
If I am absolutely frank, I think the performance is variable
across schools and across the country. Too often, it is sometimes
down to the bent, enthusiasm and commitment of the individual
teacher who is leading that programme. That is one of the reasons
why, within the development of the specialised diplomas at 14
to 19, we are looking to embed a minimum amount of time that the
student, as part of that qualification, spends with a decent period
of work experience. There needs to be in all cases a really good
level of contact between the school and the employer who is providing
that work experience so that it is genuinely something that is
worthwhile and beneficial, not just someone turning up and marking
time.
Q583 Judy Mallaber: I have had a
very varied experience in terms of whether as an employer I have
been given guidance or not by the school or the authority, in
terms of what they are looking for, for their student, and what
feedback they are expecting.
Bill Rammell: That is a really
important point. If you naturally assume that an employer is going
to have a clear idea of the best way, both for them to get something
out of the relationship and for the young person to do it, that
is an over-assumption and I think we need better guidance coming
from the schools to the employer.
Q584 Judy Mallaber: Examiners' reports
on the manufacturing GCSE said, "Candidates often do not
show enough understanding of manufacturing industry or practices."
That qualification has been on the national curriculum since 2002.
Are you saying that the new manufacturing qualifications are better
structured and what has been done to ensure that they do make
those taking part in them have real world skills and some understanding
of manufacturing? It has clearly been a criticism in the past.
Has that been fed into the new qualifications?
Bill Rammell: It is being fed
in. We need to bear in mind that that qualification itself was
only launched in 2002. In any qualification you refine and learn
from experience as you go along but I think there is a general
trend that we are trying to develop so that there is a greater
awareness and understanding of the world at work. That comes through
a specific qualification such as that but also a key element of
the 14 to 19 agenda and the specialised diplomas is probably the
biggest revolution that we are seeing in educational provision
in any generation. That is a core element of that approach.
Q585 Rob Marris: As I understand
it the Leitch report seems to be premised on a kind of across
the board skills increase and educationally increased attainment.
That may be very desirable in terms of fulfilled lives but the
evidence we seem to be getting on the Committee is that there
are sector shortages around the country, particularly in manufacturing
in the skilled jobs. What steps can be taken to prevent a situation
arising which might otherwise arise where, in order to meet an
across the board target on level four or whatever say, 40% of
people in an age cohort getting it they can go into training or
education in those areas where we have skill shortages such as
manufacturing?
Bill Rammell: We need care with
the skills shortage debate. If you look at skills shortages within
manufacturing, my understanding is that they are broadly comparable
with skills shortages across the economy as a whole. Historically,
they are at low levels. That does not in any sense give me cause
for complacency but I think it is important we have an accurate
picture.
Q586 Rob Marris: Your understanding
is there is a low level of skills shortages in manufacturing?
Bill Rammell: Historically. If
you look at the picture historically, that is my understanding.
The proportions of skills shortages in manufacturing are similar
to those in the economy as a whole.
Chairman: I think the situation is that
there are certain sectors where there are very acute shortages
and other sectors where it is less acute.
Q587 Rob Marris: The biggest single
complaint in the West Midlands from business is skills shortages.
That may be across the board.
Bill Rammell: There certainly
may be regional variations and specific elements of sector variation.
To deal with the thrust of your question can we do more to direct
young people towards the right kinds of subjects? as a parent
going through a debate with his 14-year old daughter at the moment
about what GCSEs she is going to take, I do not think we should
overstate the ability of anybody to direct young people into the
right subjects. Nevertheless, getting across the information about
the additional earnings premium for science and technology subjects
is important. At the higher education level there is some tentative
evidence that the introduction of the variable fee system is leading
a shift towards people choosing some of the more science-based
and technology-based subjects. If you look at applications for
university for next year, there has been a good increase across
the board but the trend for chemistry, physics, mathematics, engineering
and science has gone significantly ahead and that is now about
three years in a row where you can start to discern that kind
of pattern. There is also a whole range of initiatives that we
are taking, within schools giving more young people the chance
to study triple science, the 250 after school science clubs, the
increases in bursaries and golden hellos to get more science teachers
into teacher training, where again the evidence is the proportions
going down that route with a 2:1 or a first are increasing, looking
at those teachers who do not have a specialism, say, in physics
or chemistry. How can we through continuing professional development
upskill their capability? Also, doing things like expanding the
associate student scheme to encourage undergraduates to go into
schools to get a taste of teaching and also the science and engineering
ambassador scheme, getting people working in the sector. We are
going to be funding 18,000 next year to go into schools and evangelise
on the importance of these subjects. All of that can and will
change behaviour over time.
Q588 Rob Marris: Is that feeding
through into engineering as well, which is pretty important for
skilled manufacturing?
Bill Rammell: It is. If you look
at the latest figures, civil engineering as an example is up 13%
for next year.
Q589 Chairman: These are applications
for university? When is that process happening?
Bill Rammell: It is happening
as we speak. The figures I am referring to are the ones that were
announced a couple of weeks ago on the big January deadline.
Q590 Chairman: We have last year's
figures. It would be interesting to have this year's figures.
Bill Rammell: We can happily provide
you with those.
Q591 Rob Marris: Parenthetically
I might suggest you tell your daughter to do geology. They are
the highest paid graduates. If we accept, as I think many on the
Committee do I hope you do that UK manufacturing requires skilled
workers and there are some skills shortages there, some of those
skilled workers may come from overseas and some of them may not
speak English very well but have lots of other skills, which gets
us onto the ESOL stuff, which I think it would be remiss of us
not to at least touch upon. That is, English for Speakers of Other
Languages. If your proposed changes to ESOL provision are implemented,
how if at all will these skilled migrant workers be affected?
Bill Rammell: I am happy to have
this opportunity to set the record straight because there is a
lot of misinformation being put about to do with the changes.
We are not seeking to cut the ESOL budget. The funding for it
and the numbers have tripled since 2001. We have gone from about
158,000 learners accessing ESOL to over 550,000 today. That trajectory
is unsustainable and it is creating a situation where, in parts
of the country with the acutest need, the waiting list to simply
get on the course in some cases is 18 months to two years. It
is the most vulnerable and the hardest up learners who are failing
to get on to the waiting list and failing to get course provision.
We are widening out the principle that we are pursuing generally
with regard to adult education and saying that if you are in work
and you are earning, given the need for a broader range of contributions
to meet the scale of challenge that we are facing, the individual
should pay some more whilst the state still pays the vast bulk
of the funding. That is what we are pursuing. People on means
tested benefit, those on the Working Tax Credit up to an income
of £15,050 a year, will still get free ESOL. I absolutely
believe that both for economic job opportunities, community adhesion
and a decent society you need to be able to speak and work with
English to succeed within society. Our approach is about managing
this and making it work. I am hopeful that if the changes go through
as we are suggesting and there are some additional protections
that I will be announcing later this week that we have considered
under the race equality impact assessment the net result of all
of that is that the most vulnerable adults who currently are not
getting into the system because of the huge waiting lists will
be able to do so. Where some employers are going out of their
way, for example, to proactively recruit people, say, in Poland
or Estonia to carry out particular jobs, those employers should
make a contribution towards the cost of that learning as well.
Q592 Miss Kirkbride: I was very pleased
to hear your enthusiasm for science in schools. I wonder if you
can clarify for the Committee exactly where we are because there
has been now for some years a trend towards one general science
qualification at GCSE. The Secretary of State has in the past
said that we want to reverse that trend and you have mentioned
the three core subjects at GCSE. Can you tell us now what the
capacity for that is in schools, teaching three GCSE sciences,
how many are doing it and how many are going into that qualification?
Bill Rammell: I cannot give you
a figure off the top of my head but I will happily give it in
writing afterwards. The commitment that we have made and we are
on track to deliver it is that by 2008, through partnership between
a school and a college within a local area, anyone seeking to
take triple science will be able to do so. That will be a significant
change. There is evidence that choices are beginning to change:
one, because of initiatives such as that and, two, as a result
of the general focus we are putting on science teaching within
schools. As I said earlier, the evidence at higher education level
is now I think the most encouraging it has probably been for 10
or 15 years.
Chairman: You promised stats on higher
education. I think we would like the stats on GCSEs in schools
as well.
Q593 Roger Berry: I am struck at
how frequently public policy in relation to education and skills
changes. Over the last 20 years we have had fashions in and fashions
out. The fashion now in relation to skills is that they should
be demand led and I can see the advantages of that but I would
like to explore it in a little more detail. The Sector Skills
Councils are supposed to be an important mechanism whereby employers
can get their views across. We have had varying comments on the
quality of some of the Sector Skills Councils. What checks exist
to ensure that the Sector Skills Councils do their work to a high
standard? In the demand led system, is there not the risk that
those with the biggest elbows will get their way perhaps at the
expense of smaller, less influential sectors?
Bill Rammell: The alternative
to that is that you second guess and centrally plan what the requirements
for particular sectors are and I am just not convinced.
Q594 Roger Berry: It is a nice trick
to set up a false dichotomy, Minister, but I was not suggesting
that. Is there a problem? If it is to be demand led and the Sector
Skills Councils are a major focus for activity, surely the employers
with clout are going to be arguing for their corner, so what are
the mechanisms in hand to ensure that the Sector Skills Councils
do their job to a high standard and take the sector into account,
not just the needs of the pushiest, most resourceful employers?
Bill Rammell: I do take that point.
There is a real responsibility on the SSCs to ensure that they
genuinely are representative of the sector as a whole and that
they are proactively going out into the sector and seeking out
as many voices as possible. I also think I will be blunt and Sandy
Leitch certainly put forward this view in his report that in relation
to the SSCs thus far, the structure, the direction is correct
but the performance is variable between SSCs. His suggestion,
that we relicense and develop a new, clearer remit for the Sector
Skills Councils, I think is an important way of beginning to get
that right, ensuring that the Sector Skills Council has a real
focus on being able to influence what kinds of qualifications
are developed, looking at the labour market information within
the sector, stimulating and engaging employer commitment, but
also considering collective measures. The film industry is a very
current example where there is a voluntary commitment towards
a levy as an example and I think we and the SSC and we should
be supporting that approach.
Q595 Roger Berry: If we take the
manufacturing SSCs what proportion of funding comes from the private
sector and the public sector?
Bill Rammell: From the public
purse it is about £78 million. Perhaps I can ask Tim: from
the private sector?
Mr Down: The amount will vary
by Sector Skills Council. Some receive a substantial amount of
their funding. Skills for Justice, for instance, gets a third
of its funding from the Sector Skills Development Agency. The
numbers vary and if the Committee would like I can let you have
those.
Q596 Roger Berry: That would be interesting
because the greater the willingness of the private sector to put
their hands in their pockets the more I personally think the demand
led approach is being justified pretty effectively. In the Sector
Skills Councils where it is public money that is being put up
and very little private funding, I think the question does arise
about whether that shows real employer commitment. We look forward
to receiving that.
Bill Rammell: There is a clear
remit at the moment as well for the Sector Skills Development
Agency to assess the performance of the relevant Sector Skills
Council to ensure that it is representative which to some extent
picks up your concern.
Q597 Roger Berry: Everyone says that
none of us has a job for life any more and that is understandable.
How do you say to somebody's current employer that this guy may
be going on to work somewhere else but you have a responsibility
for training him for future employment? In a world where people
are moving through perhaps five or six jobs in their lifetime,
how do you get current employers not to take a short term view?
Bill Rammell: You really have
to focus on the evidence, and all the evidence, both anecdotal
and research based, is that if you invest in your workforce there
is a return for the employer in terms of the bottom line. Employees
who are trained do feel more confident, more valued by an employer.
All the evidence is that you will get better retention and less
turnover if you are committing to training. The employer training
pilot, the forerunner of the Train to Gain programme, did a programme
of evaluation which identified that employees trained overwhelmingly
intended to remain with their employer. Specifically, two thirds
were saying that they intended to stay for the foreseeable future
and a further 18% for at least another year. This notion that
I know is out there, that if you invest in somebody and put them
on a training course they will simply walk away, if you look at
the evidence, I do not think is borne out. Something we absolutely
have to do is to get across much better the really positive case
studies of those employers that have committed, have invested
and get a real return. As an example, the First Bus Group invested
in a training strategy. They estimate it has saved their company
over £2.8 million in training and recruitment costs.
Q598 Roger Berry: Knowing First Bus
in my area, there are not too many alternative employers in that
particular sector which is an interesting question but not relevant
to this discussion.
Bill Rammell: That is the wrong
example but there are others.
Q599 Roger Berry: Manufacturers tell
us repeatedly that they are facing increasing cost pressures with
globalisation and so forth, as indeed they are. Simple commonsense
would suggest that in some cases that is going to make training
and upskilling people who are likely to move on to a further employer
a problem. Commonsense would suggest that there is an incentive
there to under-invest in training. If you are saying that the
evidence suggests the contrary, I welcome that obviously, and
I would like to know what specific evidence is available to support
that.
Bill Rammell: I think we should
provide you with that evidence because too often this debate and
decisions are taken—not within this Committee but within
industry—based on anecdotal instinct rather than, "Let's
do an analysis and see what actually works." The evidence
is that if you do invest you get a return.
Roger Berry: It was not anecdotal; it
was simple economics. If the economics are wrong, then fine.
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