Select Committee on Trade and Industry Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 260 - 279)

MONDAY 5 MARCH 2007

PROFESSOR SIR DAVID KING

  Q260  Chairman: Let's look at the strength of the Brazilian science and research base, if we may. Do you think there are any particular areas where Brazil is strong compared with other countries? Obviously we think about biotech, but maybe other issues like stem cell research, where perhaps they have a more liberal attitude than other countries in the scientific world? I do not know. Is there anything particularly relevant to our expertise we should be tapping into in Brazil, being more specific than the general titles you have already given us?

  Professor Sir David King: The most important thing I can say is that President Lula announced a £2.5 billion project to be spent over 10 years on using the forest biodiversity as a resource for science innovation and wealth creation for Brazil. I did speak personally to President Lula and he felt that, given the enormous strength in the life sciences, medical sciences and pharmaceutical sciences in Britain, Britain would be their preferred partner in this area. Having said that I think he would also acknowledge that the current state of Brazilian science in those areas is not that strong. They have got some really remarkably good developments, however, in the area of vaccines, where they have developed through a number of their research laboratories some very effective vaccines which they are distributing throughout Brazil.

  Q261  Chairman: From the biodiversity of the forest?

  Professor Sir David King: I think some of that has come from the biodiversity of the forest.

  Q262  Chairman: I am trying to picture in my mind what it is that Brazil actually has to offer. We think in this country perhaps of ethanol and bio-energy as a starter, and there are always concerns about deforestation which I think are probably misplaced; that probably is not the issue. But we have talked then about the way in which they can benefit from the biodiversity they already have in their country, whereas so much talk is about the loss of their biodiversity. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

  Professor Sir David King: I think it is quite clear that the notion of adding value to protecting the forests by using the forests as a resource is what underlies much of this. The biodiversity we are referring to is not only animal but plant as well, so as we move forward with sustainability being a major part of our agenda we would see this as an important resource to turn into value. Now, it is one of those things where considerably more effort is required even to develop the proof of principle underlying those statements. I think we all know that science and technology developments are often based on what nature has in reserve. For example, the development of aspirin arose from the fact that we knew people chewed a certain kind of bark from a certain kind of tree when they had headaches, and extracting the active component led to the development of aspirin as an economic advantage as well as a health advantage. Now, there are many, many more such remedies used by local people in the forests that are still to be developed and where, as I say, innovation is a potential benefit. One of the issues in our discussion with the Brazilians will be around the issue of IPR: in other words, protecting the wealth creating processes that emerge. I say that is an issue because I think the discussions I have had in Brazil indicate a certain pride in making their discoveries available on a broad scale, and if you look at the potential for international development that is perhaps not the best way to go forward.

  Q263  Chairman: This is more of an economic question rather than a scientific question but do you think there is potential economic benefit of a sufficiently high level from the exploitation of the biodiverse forest to counter the very direct financial benefit that comes from deforestation?

  Professor Sir David King: Logging is quite clearly a big industry that is difficult to counter but I think the answer to your question really lies in the following. Loggers tend to move into an area of the forest and remove an area before they are discovered and then move out. The local people have in the past not been empowered to even call in the government and say: "The loggers are removing our forest". One part of adding value through the exercise we are now talking about is the process of empowering local people, so that they see value themselves. For example, one of the aspects of adding value to the forest is from the value that the water flowing through these forests has for farmers further downstream where the water going through a forest will provide very fertile water for the farmers, whereas water going through a logged area adds no fertility. Now, persuading local people in the forests to set up measurements of water flow and charging farmers further downstream is one aspect of this process that has proved successful in some areas. This simply gives the incentives to the locals to hang on to the forest.

  Q264  Chairman: You have already talked about cross-departmental work in answer to an earlier question, and I can see how important that is. There is a cross-departmental sustainable development dialogue with Brazil I believe, which promotes collaboration and exchange of good practice on sustainable development and integrates sustainability in the UK's bilateral relationship with not just Brazil but also China, India, Mexico and South Africa. What is the involvement of your office in that initiative?

  Professor Sir David King: The major involvement that my office has had arose from a visit I made to Brazil in which I investigated with several ministers, including agriculture and science, the issue that you have already raised which is converting sugar cane into alcohol as an alternative to sugar production, but also on the other side of that enabling alcohol as a fuel through the vari-fuel device used in cars in Brazil. Out of those discussions we set up a scoping study for southern Africa on converting that technology across into southern Africa—

  Q265  Chairman: This is the UK, Brazil, South Africa—

  Professor Sir David King: Yes, so I suppose I could say I was the instigator of that process. The outcome has been that the Chancellor signed an agreement with the Mozambique government to assist in the process to focus initially on Mozambique, and that is progressing well. Our scoping study indicates that for the country of Mozambique they could reduce their oil imports by 40% by converting to sugar cane growth and converting that into alcohol and mimicking the Brazilian process, and here Brazilian technology is quite simply world-leading. It is not a simple process and they have, since the 1980s, been refining it over the years, so there are very real benefits in that particular agreement.

  Q266  Chairman: Can we be clear whether the UK-Brazil-South Africa bio-ethanol partnership is with South Africa or southern Africa?

  Professor Sir David King: Southern.

  Q267  Chairman: What mechanism do you use to bring together the countries of southern Africa?

  Professor Sir David King: The joint dialogue was signed on a visit by Margaret Beckett to Brazil. The Chancellor, as I say, went out to Mozambique and signed that. The process has enabled the discussions to be facilitated with the key members of the Brazilian technology partnership.

  Q268  Chairman: That is very helpful. On ethanol, I am curious to know how much attention we should pay to this issue? There is growing concern about the actual carbon implications of biofuels which have always been assumed to be a good thing, and also with the high levels of commodity prices at present the economics of it may not look quite so attractive either. Is this a very fruitful area of collaboration between Brazil and the UK?

  Professor Sir David King: If you look at the economics of biofuels they are very sensitive to the input feedstock, so sugar cane is easily the best input both from an economic and from a carbon cycle viewpoint. Maize and beet are the alternatives, wheat is another possibility. Now, maize to alcohol is a very inefficient process so economically, for example, it is considerably more expensive and not competitive, but sugar cane to alcohol in those areas of the world—and southern Africa, Brazil, Australia, the West Indies would be examples where the climate would be perfect—would produce very competitive fuels, even at the lower prices today.

  Q269  Chairman: So sugar from an environmental and economic perspective is your preferred option?

  Professor Sir David King: Yes.

  Q270  Chairman: One last question from me about the modalities, the practicalities of co-operation with Brazil. Is the Year of Science looking at links between UK companies, Brazilian companies, higher education institutions, or universities? What is the nature of the link you are seeking to build? Between what kinds of organisations?

  Professor Sir David King: "Yes" is the answer to all of those, in the sense that it is a science and innovation driven process, so it is looking at the whole process of science co-operation, technology and innovation, so it has to involve both the research sector in our universities and the research sector in our industries and theirs, but also the full panoply of the UK trade and industry interests in raising the profile of British industry in Brazil.

  Q271  Chairman: When we went to India doing a similar inquiry there, the major concern we encountered there was the difficulty of Indian students to come here and study and a certain lack of entrepreneurial spirit in British higher education institutions in attracting them to come here and study. Your focus is entirely different in Brazil; it is about research, is it not, and development innovation.

  Professor Sir David King: You invite me to make a comment—

  Q272  Chairman: Please feel free to make any comment you like!

  Professor Sir David King: —which I will do. The UK currently has the highest percentage of students from overseas of any major country. 24% of our students, 220,000 students in Britain, come from overseas, of which 100,000 come from the rest of Europe. Perhaps the biggest surprise is which country provides the most students into Britain and that is Greece, which provides 30,000, and from the remainder, 120,000, there are over 50,000 from China and just under 20,000 from India, so the situation has been changing very rapidly, and I would say that Britain is now seen as a major country to come and study in, particularly in the areas of science and technology.

  Q273  Chairman: I think at the last count my old university and your current one, Cambridge, had 168 Indian students, which is not particularly sparkling, but the focus of your work is not on those undergraduate links but actually on research development innovation?

  Professor Sir David King: Yes, it is, but inevitably we would see a very positive outcome to see a significant number of students coming to Britain at undergraduate and PhD level to study science and technology. It is the linkages that those returnees create with our science and technology endeavour that is most fruitful.

  Q274  Chairman: We in India saw a huge hunger for the Indians for the British to be more involved in education, and that hunger is what makes a relationship work. Is there a hunger on the British and Brazilian side of this relationship which will make this relationship work?

  Professor Sir David King: I would be very interested to answer that question at the end of this Year of Science. I feel now very well placed on India and China, but I need to be better positioned on Brazil.

  Chairman: So the jury is out on that one. Thank you very much; we will move on.

  Q275  Mr Hoyle: Sir David, can I move you to the partners in the case of Mercosur? Obviously we have four other partners, Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay and Venezuela, and I wonder what your view is on the importance of science links with those countries?

  Professor Sir David King: I mentioned that we have three science and innovation officers in Brazil; they are the only science officers that we have amongst all of those countries you have mentioned. In other words, we have focused very heavily on Brazil, and interactions with those other countries are very much through embassies and, perhaps more particularly, the British Council. The British Council has a very good record in a number of those countries. I mentioned earlier in answer to the Chairman that I had myself interacted with scientists in Venezuela, we had five years' of interaction, and that was funded by the British Council.

  Q276  Mr Hoyle: So do you think it needs some more investment?

  Professor Sir David King: At the moment I would say that we would need persuading that it needs more investment in the sense that we can become over-stretched, so looking at our priorities around the world we have not signalled any increase in effort in those other countries.

  Q277  Mr Hoyle: We went to Argentina who are very keen on the pharmaceutical and biotech centres; in fact, UKTI evidence also highlighted the opportunities in Argentina. Is Argentina comparable with Brazil in terms of R&D and science research, or is it heading to being comparable?

  Professor Sir David King: Argentina has, like Brazil, a very good record in science and technology. There is a tremendous respect in both countries for science. Anyone who has been to the Natural History Science Museum in Argentina will know about this remarkable building, so there is tremendous respect for science but the spending on science in Argentina does not match what is happening in Brazil, and in the end scientists do need money to do research. So I think they have got some way to go. On the other hand, my argument for interaction with Brazil is built around strategic considerations and I would suggest that Argentina ought to be high on our strategic considerations. There is a longstanding common history; there is a potential for collaborations in Argentina.

  Q278  Mr Hoyle: It is always a nearly country that never quite makes it, is that what you are saying?

  Professor Sir David King: I would not want be the quoted as saying that!

  Q279  Mr Wright: Just turning to your department and the DTI and the UKTI relationship, what is the division of responsibilities between your office, the DTI and UKTI when it comes to developing science aspects of UK trade policy and sectoral/country targeting?

  Professor Sir David King: My function is to bring bits of government together, or one of my functions is that, so the Global Science and Innovation Forum that I chair was set up through our 10 year science and innovation strategy, and that is the body where UK Trade and Investment sits alongside the Foreign Office, British Council and the research councils and we try and pull this together there, so that is my interest.


 
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