Examination of Witnesses (Questions 260
- 279)
MONDAY 5 MARCH 2007
PROFESSOR SIR
DAVID KING
Q260 Chairman: Let's look at the
strength of the Brazilian science and research base, if we may.
Do you think there are any particular areas where Brazil is strong
compared with other countries? Obviously we think about biotech,
but maybe other issues like stem cell research, where perhaps
they have a more liberal attitude than other countries in the
scientific world? I do not know. Is there anything particularly
relevant to our expertise we should be tapping into in Brazil,
being more specific than the general titles you have already given
us?
Professor Sir David King: The
most important thing I can say is that President Lula announced
a £2.5 billion project to be spent over 10 years on using
the forest biodiversity as a resource for science innovation and
wealth creation for Brazil. I did speak personally to President
Lula and he felt that, given the enormous strength in the life
sciences, medical sciences and pharmaceutical sciences in Britain,
Britain would be their preferred partner in this area. Having
said that I think he would also acknowledge that the current state
of Brazilian science in those areas is not that strong. They have
got some really remarkably good developments, however, in the
area of vaccines, where they have developed through a number of
their research laboratories some very effective vaccines which
they are distributing throughout Brazil.
Q261 Chairman: From the biodiversity
of the forest?
Professor Sir David King: I think
some of that has come from the biodiversity of the forest.
Q262 Chairman: I am trying to picture
in my mind what it is that Brazil actually has to offer. We think
in this country perhaps of ethanol and bio-energy as a starter,
and there are always concerns about deforestation which I think
are probably misplaced; that probably is not the issue. But we
have talked then about the way in which they can benefit from
the biodiversity they already have in their country, whereas so
much talk is about the loss of their biodiversity. Can you talk
a little bit more about that?
Professor Sir David King: I think
it is quite clear that the notion of adding value to protecting
the forests by using the forests as a resource is what underlies
much of this. The biodiversity we are referring to is not only
animal but plant as well, so as we move forward with sustainability
being a major part of our agenda we would see this as an important
resource to turn into value. Now, it is one of those things where
considerably more effort is required even to develop the proof
of principle underlying those statements. I think we all know
that science and technology developments are often based on what
nature has in reserve. For example, the development of aspirin
arose from the fact that we knew people chewed a certain kind
of bark from a certain kind of tree when they had headaches, and
extracting the active component led to the development of aspirin
as an economic advantage as well as a health advantage. Now, there
are many, many more such remedies used by local people in the
forests that are still to be developed and where, as I say, innovation
is a potential benefit. One of the issues in our discussion with
the Brazilians will be around the issue of IPR: in other words,
protecting the wealth creating processes that emerge. I say that
is an issue because I think the discussions I have had in Brazil
indicate a certain pride in making their discoveries available
on a broad scale, and if you look at the potential for international
development that is perhaps not the best way to go forward.
Q263 Chairman: This is more of an
economic question rather than a scientific question but do you
think there is potential economic benefit of a sufficiently high
level from the exploitation of the biodiverse forest to counter
the very direct financial benefit that comes from deforestation?
Professor Sir David King: Logging
is quite clearly a big industry that is difficult to counter but
I think the answer to your question really lies in the following.
Loggers tend to move into an area of the forest and remove an
area before they are discovered and then move out. The local people
have in the past not been empowered to even call in the government
and say: "The loggers are removing our forest". One
part of adding value through the exercise we are now talking about
is the process of empowering local people, so that they see value
themselves. For example, one of the aspects of adding value to
the forest is from the value that the water flowing through these
forests has for farmers further downstream where the water going
through a forest will provide very fertile water for the farmers,
whereas water going through a logged area adds no fertility. Now,
persuading local people in the forests to set up measurements
of water flow and charging farmers further downstream is one aspect
of this process that has proved successful in some areas. This
simply gives the incentives to the locals to hang on to the forest.
Q264 Chairman: You have already talked
about cross-departmental work in answer to an earlier question,
and I can see how important that is. There is a cross-departmental
sustainable development dialogue with Brazil I believe, which
promotes collaboration and exchange of good practice on sustainable
development and integrates sustainability in the UK's bilateral
relationship with not just Brazil but also China, India, Mexico
and South Africa. What is the involvement of your office in that
initiative?
Professor Sir David King: The
major involvement that my office has had arose from a visit I
made to Brazil in which I investigated with several ministers,
including agriculture and science, the issue that you have already
raised which is converting sugar cane into alcohol as an alternative
to sugar production, but also on the other side of that enabling
alcohol as a fuel through the vari-fuel device used in cars in
Brazil. Out of those discussions we set up a scoping study for
southern Africa on converting that technology across into southern
Africa
Q265 Chairman: This is the UK, Brazil,
South Africa
Professor Sir David King: Yes,
so I suppose I could say I was the instigator of that process.
The outcome has been that the Chancellor signed an agreement with
the Mozambique government to assist in the process to focus initially
on Mozambique, and that is progressing well. Our scoping study
indicates that for the country of Mozambique they could reduce
their oil imports by 40% by converting to sugar cane growth and
converting that into alcohol and mimicking the Brazilian process,
and here Brazilian technology is quite simply world-leading. It
is not a simple process and they have, since the 1980s, been refining
it over the years, so there are very real benefits in that particular
agreement.
Q266 Chairman: Can we be clear whether
the UK-Brazil-South Africa bio-ethanol partnership is with South
Africa or southern Africa?
Professor Sir David King: Southern.
Q267 Chairman: What mechanism do
you use to bring together the countries of southern Africa?
Professor Sir David King: The
joint dialogue was signed on a visit by Margaret Beckett to Brazil.
The Chancellor, as I say, went out to Mozambique and signed that.
The process has enabled the discussions to be facilitated with
the key members of the Brazilian technology partnership.
Q268 Chairman: That is very helpful.
On ethanol, I am curious to know how much attention we should
pay to this issue? There is growing concern about the actual carbon
implications of biofuels which have always been assumed to be
a good thing, and also with the high levels of commodity prices
at present the economics of it may not look quite so attractive
either. Is this a very fruitful area of collaboration between
Brazil and the UK?
Professor Sir David King: If you
look at the economics of biofuels they are very sensitive to the
input feedstock, so sugar cane is easily the best input both from
an economic and from a carbon cycle viewpoint. Maize and beet
are the alternatives, wheat is another possibility. Now, maize
to alcohol is a very inefficient process so economically, for
example, it is considerably more expensive and not competitive,
but sugar cane to alcohol in those areas of the worldand
southern Africa, Brazil, Australia, the West Indies would be examples
where the climate would be perfectwould produce very competitive
fuels, even at the lower prices today.
Q269 Chairman: So sugar from an environmental
and economic perspective is your preferred option?
Professor Sir David King: Yes.
Q270 Chairman: One last question
from me about the modalities, the practicalities of co-operation
with Brazil. Is the Year of Science looking at links between UK
companies, Brazilian companies, higher education institutions,
or universities? What is the nature of the link you are seeking
to build? Between what kinds of organisations?
Professor Sir David King: "Yes"
is the answer to all of those, in the sense that it is a science
and innovation driven process, so it is looking at the whole process
of science co-operation, technology and innovation, so it has
to involve both the research sector in our universities and the
research sector in our industries and theirs, but also the full
panoply of the UK trade and industry interests in raising the
profile of British industry in Brazil.
Q271 Chairman: When we went to India
doing a similar inquiry there, the major concern we encountered
there was the difficulty of Indian students to come here and study
and a certain lack of entrepreneurial spirit in British higher
education institutions in attracting them to come here and study.
Your focus is entirely different in Brazil; it is about research,
is it not, and development innovation.
Professor Sir David King: You
invite me to make a comment
Q272 Chairman: Please feel free to
make any comment you like!
Professor Sir David King: which
I will do. The UK currently has the highest percentage of students
from overseas of any major country. 24% of our students, 220,000
students in Britain, come from overseas, of which 100,000 come
from the rest of Europe. Perhaps the biggest surprise is which
country provides the most students into Britain and that is Greece,
which provides 30,000, and from the remainder, 120,000, there
are over 50,000 from China and just under 20,000 from India, so
the situation has been changing very rapidly, and I would say
that Britain is now seen as a major country to come and study
in, particularly in the areas of science and technology.
Q273 Chairman: I think at the last
count my old university and your current one, Cambridge, had 168
Indian students, which is not particularly sparkling, but the
focus of your work is not on those undergraduate links but actually
on research development innovation?
Professor Sir David King: Yes,
it is, but inevitably we would see a very positive outcome to
see a significant number of students coming to Britain at undergraduate
and PhD level to study science and technology. It is the linkages
that those returnees create with our science and technology endeavour
that is most fruitful.
Q274 Chairman: We in India saw a
huge hunger for the Indians for the British to be more involved
in education, and that hunger is what makes a relationship work.
Is there a hunger on the British and Brazilian side of this relationship
which will make this relationship work?
Professor Sir David King: I would
be very interested to answer that question at the end of this
Year of Science. I feel now very well placed on India and China,
but I need to be better positioned on Brazil.
Chairman: So the jury is out on that
one. Thank you very much; we will move on.
Q275 Mr Hoyle: Sir David, can I move
you to the partners in the case of Mercosur? Obviously we have
four other partners, Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay and Venezuela,
and I wonder what your view is on the importance of science links
with those countries?
Professor Sir David King: I mentioned
that we have three science and innovation officers in Brazil;
they are the only science officers that we have amongst all of
those countries you have mentioned. In other words, we have focused
very heavily on Brazil, and interactions with those other countries
are very much through embassies and, perhaps more particularly,
the British Council. The British Council has a very good record
in a number of those countries. I mentioned earlier in answer
to the Chairman that I had myself interacted with scientists in
Venezuela, we had five years' of interaction, and that was funded
by the British Council.
Q276 Mr Hoyle: So do you think it
needs some more investment?
Professor Sir David King: At the
moment I would say that we would need persuading that it needs
more investment in the sense that we can become over-stretched,
so looking at our priorities around the world we have not signalled
any increase in effort in those other countries.
Q277 Mr Hoyle: We went to Argentina
who are very keen on the pharmaceutical and biotech centres; in
fact, UKTI evidence also highlighted the opportunities in Argentina.
Is Argentina comparable with Brazil in terms of R&D and science
research, or is it heading to being comparable?
Professor Sir David King: Argentina
has, like Brazil, a very good record in science and technology.
There is a tremendous respect in both countries for science. Anyone
who has been to the Natural History Science Museum in Argentina
will know about this remarkable building, so there is tremendous
respect for science but the spending on science in Argentina does
not match what is happening in Brazil, and in the end scientists
do need money to do research. So I think they have got some way
to go. On the other hand, my argument for interaction with Brazil
is built around strategic considerations and I would suggest that
Argentina ought to be high on our strategic considerations. There
is a longstanding common history; there is a potential for collaborations
in Argentina.
Q278 Mr Hoyle: It is always a nearly
country that never quite makes it, is that what you are saying?
Professor Sir David King: I would
not want be the quoted as saying that!
Q279 Mr Wright: Just turning to your
department and the DTI and the UKTI relationship, what is the
division of responsibilities between your office, the DTI and
UKTI when it comes to developing science aspects of UK trade policy
and sectoral/country targeting?
Professor Sir David King: My function
is to bring bits of government together, or one of my functions
is that, so the Global Science and Innovation Forum that I chair
was set up through our 10 year science and innovation strategy,
and that is the body where UK Trade and Investment sits alongside
the Foreign Office, British Council and the research councils
and we try and pull this together there, so that is my interest.
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